Oof! He slowed big time. Loss of grip.
I have been racing cars and karts since 1998. Almost anytime I have been ran into from behind on corner exit I have considered it my fault. The person behind you expects you to go and racing does not afford him to wait and see if you do. In shifters or cars it is worse. Miss a shift and you will get run over. But whatever the cause of the slowing it will likely result in being hit. Being hit from the side is a different story. That usually is someone not giving racing room. In those case fault is a lot more subjective
This topic is interesting as a new 206 guy coming from a time attack/time trials background. I find that giving space is something that is just pounded in my head. As there is no excuse for contact when you’re only racing the clock. I have found if I know a guy to be slow in “x” corner I just coast and get back on throttle to stay behind him without losing to much. The more I see you guys talk about it it seems that it is totally acceptable to push him through the corner to ensure I don’t lose my gap. I have also discovered at least at the events I have been to so far. Establishing yourself next to someone it means nothing. They will still come down on the corner and you either brake or take the contact. Since I hate tossing my race out the window to prove a point I often just brake and hope I can catch them again. Aggressiveness is not my strong suit as I try to keep my nose clean as much as possible
It’s ok to ride a bumper and tap away. It’s not ok to push them out of the way.
The taking a position next to a guy has and always will be essentially a game of chicken. Also totally acceptable. But, you can’t turn into a guy.
Yes the turning into a guy is a big no no. But I don’t even ride bumpers as close as I can because well I figured it was frowned upon. Cause if im riding a bumper and they brake one of us is likely spinning.
In practice I find it annoying and egotistical. Just go around. In races it’s totally valid.
"Establishing yourself next to someone it means nothing. They will still come down on the corner and you either brake or take the contact."
This is not how it’s supposed to go down. If you are alongside in such a way that they HAVE to turn into you to complete the corner, success. You won, you got inside enough. If they turn into you here, that’s on them. This is assuming that you have reason to believe they are aware of your presence.
However, if you throw it into the corner in a lunge, and the guy can’t see you, he’s gonna turn in. This often ends badly and is not well received.
Line of sight sorta dictates what’s acceptable. Lunging from outside field of view is risky and generally not appreciated. This is an old guy perspective, however.
The topic of tapping on someone’s bumper in an interesting one in my opinion because a lot of it depends on what kart you are in and what the situation in.
In a kart like a 206, bump drafting in a big pack or to help the person ahead make a pass and be able to slip down the inside with them is a necessity whereas you never see KZ or pro shifter guys bump drafting because it’s not necessary.
I have found that there are certain corners at some tracks that you can’t be right on someone’s bumper ( the corner in the video I posted for example ) and that is really something I think the driver just has to realize after driving the track.
As several have said touching the bumper in front is ok. Upsetting the kart in front of you is not. The earlier in your learning the more you will get it wrong. Own it and apologize when you do and work harder.
As far as being inside. In my first year, or maybe second I kept getting inside a guy and he kept coming down on me. I asked him if it was another racer named Chris on the inside would this driver come down on him.
He said. “He wont let me”.
I let him know some day soon we were going to wreck. Some day later we wrecked. After that he did not come down on me.
At some point with some drivers you have hold your ground so the other driver gives you the space on the track that you have every right to if you are up beside them heading in to a corner.
Learning to pass is a whole different thing than learning to go fast.
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If we are in a single speed kart and you’re behind me, I fully expect you to be right on my bumper pushing so we can run down or pass whoever is in front. Either that, or go around me so I can hook up to the back of you. Expect to feel me back there on the straights. You get enough separation in the corner from the kart behind to not have contact while turning, but it gets put right back on the bumper when we point straight.
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That’s the thing. I’m running guys down in the corners. We are basically even down the straights. Then in corners it’s contact or lift. And because I strive to not be “that guy” I lift. Which in turn takes me out of position for the straight. I know it’s just learning where to put my kart. And it’s been a wet track. So not a lot of track to deal with as off line is super wet therefor slower.
Really I know it’s me. Just venting basically. And testing the boundaries of acceptable contact. A top 10 is a top 10. Be to aggressive and I take one or both of us out.
Flesh this out a bit… You are in draft…you pop out and take inside position…you head into braking zone side by side… then what?
In this instance he was already on the brakes. I was consistently driving deeper before braking. When on a lap without traffic I was still able to make the corner just fine. So I was adjusting braking points and setting up different places to try and put myself in better positions for off the corner.
Experience will get me there
Are you alongside him when he turns in?
Or are you describing being behind him, being able to drive the kart deeper into the corner with a later brake, but his turn in intersects with you getting past on the inside? So, you have to back out?
Correct. And tried hanging to the outside same technique to cross him up but to carry momentum with speed to pass our paths would still intersect as he would track way out when he knew I was coming on the outside. It was just good blocking on his part. Amplified by my refusal to bump to make a pass. And ultimately my fault for being in the position. Struggled with setup prior to qualifying and put me mid pack. Finally got it dialed in for the final but then got stuck behind this dude. It was honestly just a few instances of me not being aggressive enough when along side and forgoing the corner to avoid contact.
Ok that makes sense. We’d need to see it on video, but it sounds like the same frustrations I had at first with passing. You will get more confident and assertive and you will figure out how to place yourself between them and where they want to go. It took about 5 races for me to start passing and not lose so much time putting along behind a slower guy.
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It is not clear to me if you are inside before the other guy turns in. If so then the other driver needs to give you room. If on the other hand he turns in and you are not yet beside him he is not expected to change his line to give you room because you are able to out brake him. It is not clearly stated most places, but you need to be inside before turn, not just before he gets to the apex
Ask the officials or other drivers in another class to watch it and advise you.
Wet will throw it off a little - but not entirely.
My take on it is don’t be in contact in these ways
- pushing nose to tail on turn in
- making contact just before braking
- on the inside after turn in
- Straight out using other karts as braking or ricocheting off of them to make a corner.
What I think it should be:
- contact should be nose to tail from exit to before braking. Straight lines
If you are giving the guy in front enough room to turn in you aren’t up enough.
You really need up 75+ percent and as close to them as possible.
That said I have had guy want to still turn in and push or try to go around the outside. The have a right to attempt around the outside but should not turn in until you do. The inside car/kart should control turn in.
The best times on track are with other drivers that get it and we race back and forth as it is supposed to be. I also think the we have a better time and learn more.
Some guys just use the bumpers too much on rentals. Some won’t let it go even after you have run them down and passed in a dominant way and next corner they are making any attempt possible to repass you. One guy in rental league makes to many evasive move when in front. He went to sprint and jumps the starts pretty hard. He is gonna get pinged for that in sprints where in rentals they rarely enforce it.
I did ride passenger in a TT3/2 car the other day. Problem was slower cars not knowing we were there and not giving a point by until a while later. The driver handled it ultra cool and understood the slower guys were using the system as best they could and were mostly inexperienced. The only real issue was a guy that slows down pulls over and won’t point by. The he finally points by and immediately goes into drag race mode. There are alwasy 1-3 in every crowd. The car was fast enough that no one else survived their ride along. Every one either cut it short or was sick after. I made it through on breathing and where I was looking.
I want to go back and read something and comment on it later.
@Mike_Clark appreciate it. Yeah I hate point by events. Series I run in is open passing. So no waiting. And if you don’t have it together then you’re off the track.
And I agree. I have had some great battles that have gone back and forth for most of the race. And I had a blast. This one in particular I was just screaming obscenities in my helmet being angry. I love race craft. Taking a line where if they want to block it will severely compromise their next corner and that’s where you make your move.
Yeah this is what ended my last race. I got taken out at the start of a promising race so I had to work my way through the field. One very sketchy braking zone which some people are pretty passive in which makes it easy to pass from far behind. problem is they cant see you so I was turned into (my fault)
Some things that worked for me: follow his line through one turn as close as possible which should allow you to be with him on the straights. From there the draft should help you stay close and get a bumper up the inside. Assuming he brakes in a straight line and you brake later than before the turn in you should be able to be nose to nose next to him. Establish yourself, get close, give him some taps and let him know you are going to pass him. I hope this helps