Breakthrough or delusion?

This sort of driving, while it might help you hit an apex, it’s not going to be ideal for front tire wear or controlling the inside rear wheel lift. It’s also going to hurt your exit speed as you have to scrub speed off constantly to keep the kart from driving off the track on the exit.

I think Lee is describing what essentially boils down to the basics of driving fast, but maybe in a slightly different way. Of course the ideal line for a given corner is the one that allows you to carry as much speed as possible while covering the shortest distance, which would mean you are driving right over the apex of the corner. When you take a corner at the proper speed and line, the kart is doing to naturally swing out to the edge of the track.

The technique you’re describing Lee would get you halfway around the corner properly. That is, the entry would be quick and the apex might be correct. If I’m understanding it correctly at least. Bit hard to describe all this over the internet.

There are definitely corners out there where using some out-of-the-box techniques can help you get through the corner without lifting. The one that springs to mind is the tree line corner at Shawano. Top left corner of the photo, 90 degree corner that runs along the trees: Image result for usair shawano

In most karts, this corner is alllllllllmost flat-out. However, if you really chuck your body into the kart and start turning in a little early, you can get through there without lifting.
1:28 in this video:

So maybe in a very fast corner this is applicable, but you wouldn’t be braking in a corner like that anyway.

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TJ is correct. I’ve watched a lot of video on this particular track. This corner is so close to being flat. Even the tag guys are barely lifting and that’s just to get the go kart rotated into the corner. I would assume it also saves tires as I have heard that this particular track is hard on tires. I wish the track it was still raced at. The scope approach works well with practice. It is used by F1 guys, so I know it works.

Not to high jack the thread or take it topic but while reading all this it had me thinking. Is there a team, group or person out there that someone could send a video of their race along with mychron 5 data to get a kind of “remote” coaching. Maybe also send in an Ariel view of the map. Have them go over it and come up with some tips to find a couple tenths or whatever. Maybe not to point out the random driving errors but something someone is consistently doing that could be improved. That group or coach would obviously have to have some credibility of success. I think it something I would pay money for.

TJ offers exactly what you’re asking for Bryan. I am actually one of his clients, can’t recommend him enough he does an outstanding job!

Check out his website

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Yep. That’s sort of how I got here. I can vouch for TJ also. I work remotely with a couple coaches, It gives me an excuse to make videos and be long winded on the Internet.

Best thing I learned from TJ was the “no window shopping” rule. It’s so hard not to browse, though.

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what is the “no window shopping” rule?

I too would like some daq coaching… I’m trying to find someone to come to GoPro for a test session for that purpose. Jarsocrak’s in PA and Koyen’s in WI… Adding the flight bill to the coaching biil becomes prohibitive. :slight_smile:

“No window shopping” = don’t look unless you’re going to buy. Aka, either make the pass or stay in line.


Yup. Like people said, TJ does this through Korsasport, and Eric Gunderson has done it for me before to see how it would go, you could probably ask him what that would require.

I’ve done it a couple times for some friends at school that race where I’ll check over their data after their race weekends in either 206 or a collegiate race series called Purdue Grand Prix. If you know someone that knows how to look at data I’m sure they’d be willing to give it a look and see how it is.

And Korsasport has one of the better webpages I’ve seen in a while, with clear descriptions and rates. They even know a good helmet painter for your branding needs. #beingkoy

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Gopro and mychron data. It’s not perfect but better than the alternative.

I just went there and sent info through their contact page. Thanks

TJ: this is exactly the kind of corner that lends itself to what I’m describing, except that the kerb looks too severe. I don’t think you’d be able to lift your inside wheels over that.

That track - what a ride.


‘The scope approach works well with practice. It is used by F1 guys, so I know it works.’

That’s pretty interesting. Can you tell me more please? Who among the F1 dudes does this? I’ve suspected the elites must do this, but have never heard it said. What have you seen or heard?


This video is a couple of years old but still gets point across.

This one touches on it a bit as well. Lewis describes it as like targeting with a gun.

Well Lee,
You’ve given me very specific food for thought. Next race is at liberator which features an uphill 90 left at end of straight. This is a fast corner and perhaps suited to making it through flat. I doubt I’ll have time to really mess with it on Sunday but food for thought. Turn is at 2:30-2:35ish. This is me doing it with a ton of lift last year. Not v good.

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I’ve found that trail braking right down to the apex of the corner and overlapping throttle and brake are the two keys to speed for me, especially in a 2-stroke. A perfect corner would look like this:

  • Smoothly release the throttle
  • Brake super late, turn in immediately afterward. I know a lot of people are not sold on late braking, but I’ve found that trail braking allows for it as you are scrubbing speed in the lateral direction and well as longitudinal.
  • Try to keep steering as quiet as possible.
  • Modulate the brake, smoothly letting off as you get closer to the apex of the corner. Begin to roll into the throttle about halfway through the braking zone
  • At the apex you should be off the brake and smoothly feeding in throttle, and begin unwinding the wheel
  • Keep feeding in throttle as you unwind the corner. You should be at WOT well before you track out.

2 stroke karts may seem like they have a ton of power but they are really all about momentum and keeping RPMs up through the corner. Like you said, be on the throttle as much as possible, look ahead as much as possible.

Of course, writing down this stuff is easy but it’s much harder to consistently practice it.

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Yah. Basically the whole end game of what I was attempting to describe is a rethinking of “timing”. (Primarily of go pedal and also trying to brake less but more surgically).

  • Modulate the brake, smoothly letting off as you get closer to the apex of the corner. Begin to roll into the throttle about halfway through the braking zone
  • At the apex you should be off the brake and smoothly feeding in throttle, and begin unwinding the wheel
  • Keep feeding in throttle as you unwind the corner. You should be at WOT well before you track out.

In my case I have essentially trail braking everything but until recently, I didn’t (other than intuitively) understand the importance of managing that energy in such a way that you get in throttle early as opposed to late.

So I’d trail but not really get on gas until apex. Screw that. Brake a bit sharper and earlier if necessary, and look to start feeding throttle ASAP. And, where possible, try to be accelerating trough the entry phase as well as exit.

You got it, you almost always want to be accelerating before you get to apex so you’re driving through the corner and not switching from braking to throttle when the kart is the most loaded up, as that will give it the highest chance of upsetting the kart by transferring how the load is going through the chassis.

So I have been in sim, working on this. The heart of the matter is to accelerate through. This still applies in constant throttle land. So, for those turns where there is no braking, but a reduction in throttle intensity (not lift), you still need to be adding as you go through apex. It’s still better, as far as I can tell, to go 50% into turn and squeeze in to 100 on the way through than to go 75% constant.
In general, it looks like even if you can carry perfect, at limit constant speed all the way through, you are still better off from a building speed perspective to give up something to be accelerating through apex.

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I would agree with the 50 -> 100 vs. 75 thing. It’s always going to be a compromise of gaining on entry vs. gaining on exit. Since you want to prioritize the exit speed because that will translate into gains all the way down the straight, 50 -> 100 will let you build speed earlier and get down the ensuing straight faster. The amount you would give up in the corner compared to going 75% would be minimal, but the gains would be large.