David Klaus from Briggs Racing - What is WRONG with karting?

[quote=“KartingIsLife, post:27, topic:939”]
I know about that one, I was talking about a re-deux somewhat geared as counterpoints so some of the weaker and frankly tired (IMO) arguments that re-surfaced since David posted this…[/quote]

Honestly, I’d rather just draw people here to the KP forums, and build a cleaner place for people to talk karting, rather than just another article. We’d just be talking in circles, to be honest.

I think discussions like this, and the forums, really move the needle much more, because people can see others engaging in the discourse that might make others act.

Sure, but

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Hehehe. I messaged you why. :wink:

Sidenote: Can anyone explain how the MSA is supposed to work, when relating to regulating karting? I always see threads online about people griping about it, but I don’t know what the MSA is supposed to do.

I can make another thread on this, if it’s tangential.

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It’s essentially the CIK\FIA arm in the UK

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Well…

As James says the MSA is the CIK/FIA representative in the UK. This makes them the sole governing body for all motorsport, from karting to rally to Formula 3. Admittedly they don’t cover everything (i think they don’t govern autograss or hot rod racing for example).

They maintain the rules, provide licenses to competitors and officials and provide training to officials (we call Race Directors, Clerks of the Course and Tech, Scrutineers). In karting they use the Association of British Kart Clubs to help write some of the class rules or kart specific rules and most kart clubs are part of this Association. This leads to a countrywide set of rules for classes included weights, tires, fuel, engines etc. MSA also provide the event insurance I believe.

Now this isn’t to say its all gravy, there is a lot of unhappiness with what is seen as an organisation run by old men trying to make a buck for themselves (both for the MSA and ABkC) and ruining karting with rules handed down from the CIK or inflexibility to allowing something a little different (like F100). Add on top of this tire contracts, some commercial classes (rotax, x30) being able to get put in the rule book quickly.

I think some of it is a little unfair and they are often blamed for a large fall in license numbers (it was in high 6000’s when i started and now is in the 2-3000’s i think). As a result of this there has been a bit of a split to Non-MSA or IKR (independent kart racing) but for the most part they still use MSA rules and regulations. They can also be described as a precipitator of the “karts to cars” or karting as the first step on the ladder mantra. But everyone did that in the noughties, especially with the Lewis Hamilton factor.

I probably shouldn’t have sounded like I blamed the internet, the internet is just the medium.

The point is when I first started in 1998, we went to the circuit shop (or my dad did) and he asked who they knew could help and the shop pointed us to someone who wasn’t full of BS. And that’s pretty much how we learnt. A lot of people didn’t do that and just bought a kart from someone at track and started that way.

Now people get scared away before they even buy the kart by the wealth of information. Of course its the same with other sports, lets take mountain biking. You could just go buy a mountain bike from Walmart and hit the trails and find out through experience that you need a more expensive bike but you’ll probably have a ton of fun finding out and it’ll take you a while to find out. Now with the internet you spend 30minutes looking up you need a $2500 bike or you’ll die because something will break on your walmart bike.

Another karting example, if you just went to your local track you might find they only run 3 classes (LO206, TAG, Shifter) so you walk around and the club officials say you should probably start in LO206, go talk to this dealer. He sells you a nice condition second hand outfit, you start racing. You don’t need to know how long tires last because your too slow anyway, same with seat position, gearing, any setup. You’re just having a blast.

Now compare that to the guy who googles karting, finds 5 million classes, finds he has to buy tires every weekend, finds he needs an italian made new kart because they are useless after 4 races.

My point being, the internet is good but sometimes its better to learn through experience and karting is a good example of this.

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But karting for most people should be like that. There is no reason at all a club couldn’t mandate a gearing for the LO206 class and a hard tire that doesn’t wear out. Most new karters take ages to get the point were a seat position or any setup makes any difference at all and I’m sure that applies to motocross too. I bet when I started karting (i’d have to confirm with my dad) we never touched a thing except as mandated by the rules (safety items) for at least 6 months and it was only that short because we paid someone to help us and show us the way. Did it make any difference to my enjoyment level, no. Did it mean i raced around on my own, no.

You do have a valid point on a motocross bike being used anywhere though.

I do agree that most people shouldn’t have a problem. I am kind of an anomaly. If a seats where it’s “supposed to go”, I’m a foot away from the pedals and my eyes are almost below the top of the wheel.

I’ve got every “solution” or trick in the book for advice except for move the seat. Maybe I had to pay for that one :stuck_out_tongue:

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There’s this weird misconception in karting that the manufacturers seat position is the be all and end all. Which is probably why you didn’t get the help you needed.

I think the manufacturer is generally thinking of someone between 5’5" and 5’10". If you are outside these limits you probably need to move it at somepoint.

But you have to get fast enough first for it to be worth it.

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Ugh my work kills me about this. We had a setup where Franklin Kart had one of their Merlin cadets sitting right in the viewing area, and people were always interested in it. But the new management didn’t like it, so they removed it. We used to get plenty of questions on the kart and peak some interest, but our new owner is a dick. In reality, I don’t think it’s (real) karting’s fault that there isn’t any connection between sport and competition. I believe the investors don’t understand why it’s so necessary and don’t allow it.

That’s also the cool thing about Speedway Indoor Karting. It’s run by ex-IndyCar driver/owner Sarah Fisher, so they understand the sport. They run CRG rentals and have an actual CRG (engine-less) sitting right in their lobby. I don’t know much more about it but they’re definitely off to a better start for us as kart racers than my location, or K1.

It’s not really necessary for them from the standpoint of their investment because the returns on it are pretty questionable. So they feel “protective” of their “kind” of karting ergo, business model.

On the other hand, the more racing enthusiast-type owned/run places tend to be a bit more into cross pollination. For example, up my way, MB2 raceway and Stockholm Karting Center (Which offers racing and rentals) have brochures for each other’s tracks. In Ohio, Thompson Kart Raceway also did something with a local indoor kart track.

It’s interesting because often the availability of “information” on the web is used as a counterpoint to the difficultly of getting started.

I agree totally though. People miss that we’ve moved from an information age into a curation age. Each situation for someone getting into karting (or any activity) is unique. Budget, previous experience, personal goals, time available, location (therefore classes available) etc etc all play a role in what is likely to work best for them.

The interim measure is a resource like these forums, and to some extent the articles on the main site. As a community we can help guide folks along the path that they need to get started. That can get off course too, but generally speaking most of the folks here on the forums are pretty objective, helpful and get that they need to think about what is going to work for the person answering the question.

I think an online navigator/roadmap of some kind would be fantastic and it’s something that’s been on my list of “thing’s I’d love to implement at KartPulse” for some time. A step by step program that’s based on their preferences that gives some goals\milestones along the way.

Totally doable. Not easy, not fast but doable…
All we need is a sponsor that’s smart enough to understand the value of something like this for their brand and the sport :grin:

Correct, I worded that badly. The investors don’t see why it’s so important to us, because they see very little return on their end.

I always thought, “well having actual racing stuff will legitimize the business and look better for us,” but the target demographic doesn’t even know that kart racing exists, so why would they care about competition racing.

That is part of the reason why I appreciate the smaller, enthusiast based locations more. The small things they do are what I really enjoy seeing in some of those places.

Essentially why KartPulse was started and one of the main reasons Davin and I worked together on it. I got seriously tired of the primary narrative in media (and the community) being that karting is a stepping stone and “where the pros started”. That it’s something that you should move up from. When I talked with, basically everyone else I knew they agreed, but the question hadn’t really been posed before.

On the KP facebook page, we don’t talk much, if ever about the ladder perse and that’s a conscious choice. We are about Karting and we want to talk about people that are karting or interested in getting into it, not people that used to be because that has been done over and over.

Karting is far more dynamic and has much more to offer than is often portrayed.

I cracked a joke with @DavinRS at PRI last year that Karting isnt for kids, karting is for adults, formula cars are for kids

Sure, stepping stone is a part of the ecosystem… but that’s just it. It’s a PART of the karting ecosystem. Having said that, a lot of businesses are rooted deeply in the part of it, there’s a decent chunk of money there as you might expect and therefore there is money available for content creation and media.

So unless we create things to counter that narrative in ways that appeal to people. That perception will prevail. I feel like it has changed a lot in the last couple of years, but that’s 1) Subjective and 2) My very biased opinion.

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It’s understandable that David has a perspective on karting, and I don’t think we should overplay the characterization of bias. Karting is so small and expensive that it is fact of life that many, perhaps most, of the participants have some sort of dog in the fight. It might be better in some ways to look at a few data points and ask what is different in that scenario. That analysis might lead to a better understanding of what factors impede the growth of karting in the US. I wonder, though, if we can even all agree that growth in karting would be a positive thing. I think it would. More participation would result in lower costs of equipment, better facilities and more competition. How could any of that be a bad thing?

My son races here in the midwest. Our club is relatively healthy. We had 125+ entries in our last club race. Our biggest growth area has been LO206 Senior, followed by LO206 Sportsman, and Sportsman Mini Swift. We routinely see 20+, sometimes 25+ LO Senior karts on the grid this season, which is a large increase over last season. It is clear that there was/is latent demand that this package is addressing. The question is whether the LO package is drawing new entrants in a way that will eventually lead to growth in more technically demanding classes, or whether those existing participants are simply buying used equipment and LO packages because it’s fun to race more on a race day and the incremental effort is small for the LO206 class (beyond the initial cost of equipment…in most cases an older used chassis and a fairly economical motor).

There is something in the growth that speaks to the participation challenges that karting faces. While our club is relatively strong, due in no small part to the many folks that have been around for decades and their dedication as volunteers and participants, another nearby local club has all but dwindled and dissolved. My son and I have been involved for almost four years. It was very easy to get started, with availability locally of used equipment and many helpful people. From there on, nothing in karting is easy unless you can spend 50K a year (and are employed part-time…or not at all). Nor am I saying that it should be. I raced MX when I was young, and can hold my own with a hand tool. I’m comfortable with the prospect of having to learn to test and tune, but there may be others that want to participate and for whatever reason understand that they won’t be able to navigate those waters as easily. We lose those folks and others for various other reasons faster than we gain the folks that can either take on that challenge or live with the consequences of not taking it on.

In karting, you are at the mercy, so to speak, of many different things that you cannot easily control. Back when I raced MX as a kid in the 70s, I routinely lined up to the gate with more kids than we see in Yamaha Jr today. I’ve spent more on clutches, tires and KT100s than the inflation-adjusted cost of both my stock and modified YZ-80s. We may have put a new set of tires on the bikes once in 4 years. My dad didn’t have to keep a new set of handlebars, wheels, foot pegs, forks, swingarm, etc in our van to go racing. Maybe we had an extra set of brake and clutch levers. I cannot recall a single race in four years where either my stock or modified bike didn’t start at the gate for a race. And I’m pretty sure that the engine in the 1979 YZ-80 was a bit more technically advanced, a bit, than the one we use today.

When my wife and I were young, we lived in Chicago. We frequented a risotto restaurant on the north side that we thought had great food. But eventually it closed. Karting is like that restaurant. You love the place and the product, but you can’t help but wonder why so many others don’t.

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What club do run @ReidSmith?

Hmmmm… I’m guessing Badger?

OVKA at G&J since 2013. Our club is doing well, but I want to be careful about not getting too involved in specifics beyond the relative growth of the LO206 class and what we might gather from that. I have a boarload of opinions about local karting in general and what the impediments are to growth, but they are unavoidably colored by my own very limited experiences with karting at the local club racing level. We’re not national level racers (my son and I) :grinning: but we rub elbows (and sidepods and bumpers sometimes) with lots of them!

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Solid post BTW.

Frankly, we need more of these viewpoints. :thumbsup:
Followed by quality discussion and action around them :slight_smile:

So, I always ask people this when they say karting is expensive…
What are you comparing it to?
What should it cost?
How will making it cheaper make it more sustainable?

Hurray for objectivity! So many folks look at these things exclusively from their own “racer” lens and that’s not really how we can work to grow the sport IMO.

Let’s ask them! I think the “what’s next after 206, for those who wish to go that way” is a very important one. People’s own interests and financial situation change over time too. so someone who might have started out running 206, after three years might be in a better position to put down more coin for something else, or travel more to “bigger” events.

Just like in racing… we want to look ahead. Skate to where the puck will be…