Personally I’m pretty tired of polarized spec vs non spec arguments. Both have their place, but it’s pretty clear that spec has been more widely adopted. 50,000+ FR125s have been sold. Like it or not, for all its flaws, it dominates and arguably makes any kind of non spec classes possible though economies of scale.
It’s also interesting to me how people pick apart the spec classes for disparity… which makes me ask the question.….
What is a reasonable amount of parity? What would stop you whining
Personally i think (in a utopian world), spec classes are 100% necessary and beneficial to karting. If and only if they fulfill their role within the pyramid which imo shouldn’t be to cater to professionals.
My gripe is not the parity of the formulas (which again, is theoretically very good for the sport), it’s the exploitation of a closed system (the restrictive regulations) to gain an advantage over others, which is somewhat inevitable once the platforms become increasingly popular.
In the grand scheme of things and at the end of the day nevertheless, as others have said, the most important bit is between the seat and the steering wheel…
I have ran both Spec (206) and Builders (Clone/420) and I can’t say there is much difference myself. The Spec stuff actually seems more expensive to me to be honest but also better in some aspects but parity isn’t really one of them.
When it comes to chassis 4 cycle sprint is a pretty open world cant say its any better or worse then CIK only 2 stroke world. Seems like it has much less cost associated with it though in comparison.
Why do you think ‘parity’ is good for the sport? Development of the ‘product’ in other formulas of racing helps drive the media and promotion. Motocross has major companies who regularly release new bikes that helps drive a large wave of promotion for the sport. Karting doens’t really have that. We now have a radically reduced media landscape. I think people have it completely wrong with regard to prarity. Triumph and Ducati coming into Supercross and Motocross is brilliant for the sport. It fuels a huge amount of intrigue and discussion about the development of their bikes.
I struggle to understand why you would think at the FIA the driver is the most important thing. Motorsport is at its best when it is a collective effort of driver, team and engineer. You have an enormous set of Technical Regulations designed to be exploited in a sporting manner by engineers, so it’s clear the sport isn’t about ‘the driver’. It’s a collective effort… which is a good thing.
I think we need to be more open and honest in this sport. We shouldn’t pretend like it isn’t all out warfare in the factories and tuner shops. That’s the game. It’s a good thing. Honestly the FIA really should be highlighting this.
When you say the driver is the most important thing you’re putting yourself out of a job.
As a blanket statement, please bear in mind that the thoughts posted on here are my own personal ones and are completely detached from the FIA… Important to keep that clear…
A reasonable amount of parity will never exist. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy because of what Simone said above. The endless loop comes from everyone thinking that they get the same UTILITY from the last of the marginal gains, when in reality those gains can only be exploited by 0.1% of drivers. Yet we all STILL want the best engines, right? Round and round we go!
I understand, but I think generally we all have it wrong, FIA included.
By putting an emphasis on the ‘driver’ we’ve created the most forgettable and inconsequential generation of karters that I can remember. We’ve actually devalued them to the point of meaninglessness. When we had the ultimate expression of pursuit performance and a vast range of equipment we had the most memorable era for drivers - Orsini, Beggio, Manetti, Rossi, etc… This isn’t a coincidence, this is fundamental.
Who won the Rotax Grand Finals this year? Who won IAME Warriors Finals this year? I can’t tell you. This has seeped in the OK classes as well because we’ve made that basically Formula 5.
KZ has managed to weather the storm… just. But for how long. We know Ippiloto won and Fore won Masters… but still I think we all know with the FIA’s F1 obsession it’s only a matter of time before KZ classes lose meaningfulness when it’s invaded by 50kg 14 year olds as the 'senior 'direct classes have done.
I think the parity debate is misguided. We’ve annihilated aspiration from the sport and have thus become invisible. This is why the Presidents words are so very concerning as his words would only make it worse.
Which is one the reasons this sport have gone from silly exspensive to plain stupid exspensive, Its the way In to motorsport and should not be about who finds the best tuner and engineer, In the perfect karting world it would be about the driver.
I find it hillarius to Call it a seniorclass where 14 year olds compete, and i agree with you on this one, that is all driven by F1 and the fact that drivers should be F1 “ready” when they are 18 or younger.
Without engineers then how can anyone possibly become a professional within karting? Without the engineer the drivers have no inherent value for anyone but themselves. I don’t think that’s a good thing. You have low stakes racing which is akin to sim racing. Where there’s low stakes racing there’s zero to no promotion because who cares? It’s all forgettable. If you win the Rotax Grand Finals no one cares. I don’t think this is good. Do you know who won this year’s event without looking it up?
The karting media has largely declined in parallel with the rise of spec racing, and this isn’t just an ‘growth of social media’ because dirtbike media is as strong as ever with various channels etc…
I think you basically wipe out at least half of what makes motorsport valuable and worthwhile. If I had the money tomorrow I could create a karting media channel that would explore an near infinite amount of avenues, and it would be mainly engineering focused and I think it’d perform well. I can’t do this for drivers. You can see when championships do this they rarely gain any kind of significant traction with it.
Drivers in isolation carry very little intrigue. It’s why a lot of youtube channels where the person who runs them ‘goes racing’ rarely perform well.
Rotax MAX and spec-racing in general grew within a diminishing market, especially in the UK. I really think we shouldn’t be blinded by what has occurred over the last few decades. I know we can’t turn the clocks back but the overall exposure of karting has unquestionably declined.
In the perfect world karting is a welcoming place for everyone… engineers and designers too. I think karting’s growing exclusionary nature has been terrible for the sport. We’ve lost a huge amount of culture.
TJ’s adventure with BestKart was demonstrable proof that having a ‘disadvantage’ with equipment was actually an interesting thing and provided a lot of engagement on the SKUSA Supernats event. If he had raced on an normal OTK it’d be far less interesting.
Interest is a #1 thing we should all strive to encourage.
Drivers being the central focus has done nothing but diminish the driver. When you have no legends what does anyone actually aspire to be?
Can’t Alan and his friends run crazy stuff pushed to the limits of what folks want to spend? Sorta like what f1 used to be before it turned into whatever it is now? Think Senna etc.
Can’t we have a nice nationally homogenous club to national level system with some standardization across a few agreed two and 4 stroke engines? I’m ok with tires being something we can wheel and deal with.
Can’t we also have promoters do whatever they think is right for their market and do so independently of a “national” org like the orgs that run all our other sports nationally? If it’s good, racers will come, regardless of it not mattering for the national ranking system. And what’s to stop a corporation from doing their own national series across national locations?
And can’t we also have something that provides a national context for competitive rental karting?
And can’t guys like Scott do whatever the fuck they want to do do on their own dirt tracks in the Midwest? 50hp on methanol and ridiculous tire prep? Sure? Why not?
I kind of like the mess we have and I’d prefer if the FIA just went away but whatever happens, it will be entertaining.
As a rental racer, I’m directly benefiting (from the boom in development in rental facilities, the surge of interest generated over the past 5 years). This is probably directly attributable to the success of the Liberty marketing via that show and the general burst of Motorsport interest that occurred from Covid. So it’s ironic that I am QQ.
I’ve only been around karting a decade or so, but I’ve noticed a huge change in interest in the past 3 years, sim a bit longer and that’s calmed down.
To add to this I remember my father who’s a mechanic told me when the X30 Nationals happened some drivers sent their engines to Europe or the USA. Even a GP representative brought engines from Italy. At the end of the day the local engines were almost on par with everyone else, they were only 0.2 secs or 0.3 secs faster but the local engines won most of the time.
This year I watched the SKUSA for the first time with my dad and he told me some names like Fore, Kremmers and Morgatto; my older brother knew them plus Norberg. Although my father was rooting for Formal because he met him personally.
My friends spend less money than those racing Rotax and X30 at the higher levels of those classes What I’ve seen in Rotax almost dwarfs anything I’ve seen my land of extremes. The big spending is almost entirely due to F1 in my view, not the actual equipment. I think people need to learn to detach the concept of spend and the actual vehicle. I was at PFi the other day where people are testing for the World Championships with a driver who had an OK engine and kart he bought for under £1000. The way people spend is less to do with the formula and more to do with the demands of those racing it, their desires and how much money they have. You can race World Championship spec karts for less than a season of arrive and drive. It’s all about the context you race in. It’s an extreme example, but possible.
That aside it’s not about ‘can we have it all’. It is what it is. I have been tainted by the era of Eurosport coverage of FIA Karting, of having Kart Magazines and others writing about new engines and drivers we all looked up to. There was a reason Manetti Vs Fore was the race of the year, and it’s not a close run thing.
I know we’re not going back because people are inherently disappointing, but alas, we have the FIA level of karting that still has potential… but the FIA President is clueless on the subject.
What I’ve seen in Rotax almost dwarfs anything I’ve seen my land of extreme
I remember when Rotax started here there was a fight between two parents of who could get the best engine for their sons from Micro to all the way to Senior, though they stopped in DD2.
Also in the races from last season you could notice some Senior drivers who had a “bomb”, though it’s a open secret some cheated with the engine but it never went to amount any disqualification because the inspectors don’t check all parts the engine.
The dream of F1 here is implicit but most people know they will never get there because of money or time with some exceptions, so most people enjoy just driving.
No one really cares who won what for the vast majority of motorsports
To me that’s a vanity thing and a driver that is racing (any type) because they think people should care……. They’re probably in it for the wrong reasons.
The older I get the less I care at all who won what In any form of racing. I just want good racing to watch.
If I squint I can see “pro” karting becoming a ‘spectacle’ and event like super cross, and that would be cool.
Personally I think basing an entire class structure, regulations, and what it means to be a ‘pro’ by an association halfway across the world with a sporadic track record isn’t the best option, but I’m also frustrated with the cyclical nature of US karting without some sort of over-arching organization.
I’ve said it before & got pushback here, but if the commercial products - chiefly engines, chassis, & related components - got more focus, I think it would up the interest. It’s exactly how MX works. The products that people can get their hands on are similar to what they see in the racing events on the tube & at the tracks, albeit expertly modified & tuned. That shared relationship is the link to the passion & the fantasy, & it drives interest. F1 is big in Europe in part because they have a strong karting culture, & the open wheel relationship. I always thought America was the nerve center of automotive racing until I went on a family trip to the UK & Germany & saw how much greater the interest was over there - & that was back in 1980.
The commercial product backbone is a shadow over here. I bet showroom kart shops are much more prevalent in Europe than all of N. America. They have that stable product market & interest. Kind of a synergy, but it exists over there. Also helps that there are tracks around to have venues to drive. Of course, MX has the advantage of not necessarily needing a formal track to ride on, & tracks aren’t typically as expensive. Takes more than pennies to make (& maintain) pavement.
The FIA has done nothing but kick American racing in the teeth why we even play ball with them is beyond me. They have been extremely good at undermining American racing. To be honest I think come the next major economic decline we could see a real fracturing in racing as a whole.
I personally find the FIA hilarious when they say they want to reduce karting cost but then you look up the current FIA karting schedule thats all year long, in multiple countries with massive operational costs. I mean, travel alone for a team running those races has to be astronomical. So, they want to reduce cost so long as it doesnt hurt the income they receive.
Karting ahould be Local races to qualify for regionals, and 3 or so Regional/national races to qualify for a world championship round. I just cut your cost by a massive amount without a single rule or equipment change.
What I’ve seen in Rotax almost dwarfs anything I’ve seen my land of extremes. The big spending is almost entirely due to F1 in my view, not the actual equipment. I think people need to learn to detach the concept of spend and the actual vehicle. I was at PFi the other day where people are testing for the World Championships with a driver who had an OK engine and kart he bought for under £1000. The way people spend is less to do with the formula and more to do with the demands of those racing it, their desires and how much money they have. You can race World Championship spec karts for less than a season of arrive and drive. It’s all about the context you race in. It’s an extreme example, but possible.