It may very well diminish with a lack of roaring engine noises, but that doesn’t mean a total lack of entertainment. It’s been a part of motorsports since the beginning so the change may seem too bad at first, but these big changes have happened before. Aerodynamics was frowned upon at first, people opposed hybrid engines and turbochargers, any major change was disliked at the start. While changing engines completely may be a bit bigger, it still fits the pattern. Formula E also has a significantly higher tv viewership than formula 1. 400k-1.5m, compared to 500k-900k
I have a feeling chargers will become widespread pretty soon, especially with all the recent announcements of large car manufacturers going fully electric in the semi near future. Until chargers are just as common as gas stations an arms race probably won’t happen. Something needs to spark companies to make widespread charging spaces. I hope it happens soon. Some decent money to be made there for sure
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Where does an electric engine spend most of its time in? (I mean at what RPM) having a peak at 4500 seems to be pretty low considering most electric engines go up to 20,000. I know nothing about electric engines
Let’s fact check your claim about viewership. Are you citing stats for a particular market? Per Grand Prix? There’s simply no way that more people are watching Formula E than Formula 1.
My ten seconds of Googling (take that for what it is) showed that F1 viewership is perhaps ~3x that of Formula E.
Where was Moore’s law mentioned in this thread?
The advances in automotive EV tech you described have already been happening over the last decade (Tesla, Porsche, Audi, trickling down to Chevy), so we seem to be in agreement there except for the timeline.
Exactly, and Moore’s law has absolutely nothing to do with batteries which are complex electro-chemical objects.
I have a hard time believing that. I personally find Formula-E rather dull mainly due to the track layouts they have to run due to the lack of energy available. Plus the whole boost phase thing is just so gimmicky. I’m sure they are fun to drive, but not so much to watch.
Somewhere between 0 and whatever the controller/motor and gearing allows for the track you are at. I strongly disagree that “most” electric motors go up to 20k RPMs (very few do). There’s normally no need to spin one that quickly since you would only do that if you want a high top speed without a transmission. Those types of speed also generally require an internal magnet motor as surface mount magnet motors are limited in speed by centrifugal force trying to remove the magnets from the rotor. Also the electrical parasitic losses go up as you spin ever faster, reducing efficiency (draining the battery quicker). They are usually most efficient around 2/3 of the rated speed.
The SMPM motor I will be using tops out around 7200 RPM. I will want to run it somewhat slower than that to keep it in a higher efficiency window. A15 tooth sprocket on the motor and a 30 tooth sprocket on the axle (428 chain) will give me a top speed of 115 MPH at the RPM limit. The track I am at is normally topped out at about 75-80 with a fast TAG or shifter, so that should be a good ratio with the motor spinning at 5008 RPMs @ 80 MPH.
The convenience of chargers is also that you can have one at home as well, so they don’t necessarily need to be as prevalent as gas stations. The arms race comment wasn’t in reference to anytime soon, but eventually the technology will catch up, likely within our lifetimes. Part of the arms race will also be proving the viability of electric motors and batteries, which won’t need a widespread charging system just to show that they’re usable.
My comment was also specifically about motorsport and karting, although general vehicle use will see that competition ramp up a lot sooner if I had to guess.
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They seem to be pretty similar from what I’ve seen. Formula e is also on more popular networks so it’s easier to watch. Peaks are also about the same
I was under the impression that electric motors get much higher rpms. Hence why they don’t need gears. (Along with because they make torque all along the rpms) some Tesla engines reach 20k I believe. Again, don’t known much about electric engines. This is jsut what I previously believed
In 2017 I did went to truck dyno to test my wheel power.
But in this vide you can see how power from battery climbs up with RPM.
We syncronized my kart and dyno when motor rpm was 1000rpm and then Full throttle.
You can also see Amps that are going to the motor versus Amps pulling from battery.
At 0 RPM my electric motor takes from controller ~660A until 3200rpm when field weakening starts. But at low rpm battery amps are really low. And HP/kw are calculated from battery (amp multiply voltage).
This motor is capable of racing 10km against 125cc rotax and 125cc dd2 without overheating.
Wasted heat is like double in field weakening range and that’s why you want to stay most of the accelerating at lower rpm.
PS! At full throttle motor outputs ~160Nm (until field weakening ~3200rpm) and my gearing is 15/36, so around 384Nm at the tire.
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Orange is motor current that is generating torque
LightBlue is current to the motor that is allowing motor to spin faster (allmost all of if is going to heat)
Yellow is these two combined (amount of current pushed to the motor)
Grey is Current taken from the battery
Dark Blue is motor output torque
And x axis is motor rpm.
In racetrack this happens very fast, under 2 seconds. But as this was in a massive truck dyno my small motor needed to work really hard to spin that dyno and so I have this graph.
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I was making a point about built in assumptions of development timeframes. All of the makers you list are basing their EVs/hybrids around Li-based batteries, which isn’t ground breaking/game changing tech. It makes them feasible, subject to constraints. The energy density isn’t comparable to petrol.
I feel like a lot of the legislative push to force EVs on the market is generating unrealistic expectations about the state of the technology &/or development timeframes. Everybody being on the same boat doesn’t make it any better than what it is, & the “next big thing” in batteries is most likely not just right around the corner.
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I agree. I work as an engineer in the electric utility industry. If battery does have a miracle breakthrough the electric utilities are an order of magnitude or two smaller than needed to support replacing ICE with electric. It is not just needing 10 to 100 times the power generation. It is power distribution also.
That said it is an exciting time. I got the chance to drive a Tesla a few years ago. It made me giggle. When battery density doubles or tripples there are going to be some pretty cool cars, and karts out there.
Which electric utility do you work for? We in BC, Canada are seeing loads stay roughly the same because as people adopt EVs they are also becoming more energy conscious (buying efficient appliances, building efficient homes, using gas instead of electric stoves and heating). It’s actually the first time, ever that load hasn’t been forecast to increase.
The problem isn’t the load, but when the load is going to happen. We’ll be switching to the highest load being at night when everyone plugs in there cars.
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Oh yeah I agree with everything you said. Never thought about the charger at home thing, good point. Most big tech comes from motorsports, so maybe karting can be where the tech trickles down from… maybe
I work for an OEM, Basler Electric. We make relays and generator excitation equipment. I have no problem believing what you are seeing. I think if wide spread electric car adoption happens the extra load will outstrip efficiency gains. I read on article that estimates we use about 4400TWh of gas energy every year in the US. Not that it will happen quickly, but if that changes to electric that is a lot of extra needed capacity. Even with the improved efficiency of the car.
I think it is an exciting time. Cool stuff is coming, but I think it is presented in the general public without a very realistic acknowledgment of the challenges beyond battery energy density.
Actually it very well could be, some recent deals have been made with Hercules (electric truck company) and in 2022, their sole battery supply will be made up of SSB batteries. Lithium sulfur batteries which are nearly twice as dense are also starting to enter the market. Mainly due to the reason that people figured out how to stabilize the battery. It’s estimated that SSB batteries will be widespread available by 2026. There are tons of new battery technologies that are theoretically miles ahead, they just aren’t nearly viable price wise yet. Battery tech continues to grow, despite plateauing in recent years. Most notably the price per KWh has gone down 93% in the last 9 years
Power grid would probably need a major update. It’s extremely outdated. The extra power load coming from electric cars would be pretty high I’d guess. Although I’m not sure what percent of power cars used compared to everything else
Indeed. I didn’t segue into infrastructure issues, but yeah, those are going to need an upgrade to meet long term demand. Smart management can mitigate load spikes, but demand will increase, & - assuming relatively distributed demand - service impacts will be felt more in smaller population centers (ie. towns & remote communities) compared to cities, where the lion’s share of service upgrades take precedence.
The white elephant in the room is power generation. Coal & nuclear are the boogeyman, so no-go there, & solar & wind aren’t going to cut it. That leaves natural gas & hydro, which are also being nitpicked for lack of righteous purity for 1 reason or another. Either people get a grip & accept certain realities associated with power production, or it’s going to be lights out, possibly even tracks closed, depending on how things play out.
Solid state has been a goal for Li+ batteries for a few years now, & it will be a step up. Still waiting, though. Graphene has been a kind of holy grail for battery tech, but mass production methods have remained elusive.
As far as my understanding goes we know how to make all these crazy batteries, just not cheaply. We do always find a way to make things cheaper so something will happen soon hopefully