When you say ‘out of the box’ engine… why is it always new out of the box engines and not ones from 3 years ago that have sat on the shelf?
In Honda Cadet in the UK engines are now valued at 10k+. A good mini X30 engine you simply can not get for less than 3-5k, which is above RRP. I remember top Rotax engines going for 20K in their peak. In TKM there has been constant development over the years, and now everyone is having to fork out for the TaG (more expensive version) of the engine to keep pace.
This is the pattern. New single-make class, low volume means high parity. Ballistic engines start to arrive when class becomes popular… and then suddenly the manufacturer releases a new X Series that eliminates all the problems…and the cycle continues.
The amount of people who have entered karting has been lower than those leaving for nearly 20 years in UK karting… yet the Rotax dealer is is selling plenty of engines. If the were was no engine development, the only time new engines would be bought is purely wear issues… and we know that isn’t the case.
3x engine manufactures all within a tenth in a class that isn’t the most simple from a technical standpoint
Felix Rovelli wrote:…There is a tendency to blame the engine for someone’s losses, when often the chassis, the driver or the setup are to blame…
I couldn’t agree more Felix.
I work on the highest level of karting and I have heard this a lot of times.
Complains like"the engine is slow out of the turns" means most of the time that the chassis is not free out of the turns…etc…
Alan is right about the importers they get 50 engines,put it on the dyno,they keep the 20 fastest and the rest is for sale.
My task is tuning the chassis,and I never interfere with the engine tuner but you can tell the difference in set up with the same engine.
This isn’t accurate at all, you’re not thinking about the bigger picture here. If you start karting in the UK you have to consider whether you want to race (and this only scratches the surface)
X30
Rotax
TKM
Vortex ROK
Prokart
etc…
35 years ago in the UK you largely had one choice
100 Britain
Sure, you had to pick an engine within that formula but that wasn’t so bad because plenty of engines would be cheap due to performance based depreciation. This helped keep entry costs manageable for newcomers (as well as hard tyres).
So again, you can’t just throw out “it’s less complicated” but not take into account the actual experience of starting karting (of which I’ve probably guided hundreds of people into). It’s an absolute horror show for newcomers and obscenely complex. The governing bodies should NEVER have allowed spec-racing in my view.
I would hear never ending complaints about karting being too complicated and difficult to understand from newcomers … this is a direct consequence of the growth of single-spec kart classes. ONce you have one, then every manufacturer HAS to have one. Sure if you only race X30… all seems fine in your X30 world… but actually try and forget everything you know about karting… put yourself in that position and your argument doesn’t hold water for a second. I need to add… I don’t anyone who would dream of racing an X30 from 2013 today
Let’s then look again at complication from the perspective of a newcomer… well single-spec is easy, right? Nope.
So with Rotax you have PRE-EVO and EVO engine. new carbs old carbs. What is a seal?
With X30 we have various series of engine. Do I need an R Series engine? I hear various things it’s complicated.
TKM… well you can have that in TaG, Direct Drive, direct drive with decompression valve… or just with clutch and outboard starter. This is all a bit much.
So no it isn’t less complicated, it’s MORE complicated then it ever was. At least with gearbox karting it’s KZ2 and that’s pretty much it… Always going to limited in popularity, but my so easy for people to get into… even if Vortex and IAME are doing their hardest to muck that up.
Regarding the ‘too many classes/engine packages’ issue, I believe ultimately it all boils down to one thing - karts have too low of a power to weight ratio for their own good, which in turn has all sorts of negative trickle down effects. For instance, because karts have a too-low power to weight ratio it means that in karting weight matters A LOT, so much so that intense scrutiny has to be applied to each and every aspect of engine packages in order to ensure parity there and everyone even has to hop on a scale to ensure all the competitors weight the same amount.
Now contrast the situation above to this; if the power for a racing class is high enough (for karting, think 250cc two stroke or above, doesn’t need to be shifter), the vehicles become so hard to pilot that no one is thinking about who has 20lbs on the other one or whose engine has two more horsepower than the other one. How do I know this works? Because there are no weigh-ins at motorcycle races, and no one there cares - everyone is doing their level best to just to keep it upright and knows that if they get beat it’s not because of weight. (and it’s not just motorcycles, this same dynamic applies to any motorsport in which the power available gets high enough - IndyCar/Nascar/F1 teams don’t need perfect weight and engine partity, because they have enough issues just getting the power they do have to the ground)
Alan,
You realize all those ten KZ ( and really, all of the 31 entrants) have engines that no Joe Public will ever be able to buy?
And, case in point, at a global level, KZ and KZ2 numbers keep going down, faster than single-engine classes…
I can’t speak for Honda or Rotax, that base their engines on mass production models, unlike Iame.
As per the 2013 X30, would you win with a Tony chassis from 2013? Your chances are better with a new out of the box 2013 X30, if there were any left…
Why would engines being used for several years, gone through hundreds of heat cycles and mechanical stresses over and over again, not suffer some loss of performance? Just because we change a piston and connecting rod?
And frankly, for a beginning Karter, wether his x30 is from 2013 or 2020, means absolutely nothing. If even there were a tenth or two per lap difference, it would be swamped by a million other factors, most importantly driving ability. As I believe you once said (or was it the Sudam?), it still is the most fun to drive for your money engine around that you can race, and you can do it most everywhere in the world.
As per the national classes, like you had in Britain, or we had in Italy, that allow several brands of fairly similar engines, with no tuning allowed: they inevitably become single engine classes, de facto, by one engine brand dominating the others at the very top level. If you think you can never achieve perfect parity among engines of one brand, how will you do it with more than one?
And if you allow multi brands with tuning, you will need a new “tuner of the year” engine every race, and eventually factory engines will appear, if the market is appetizing enough.
We can wax poetically about the good old times, but they were very different times, when the middle class buying power kept expanding the market. It’s the same for skiing, golf, sailing, etc etc, all expensive sports that are not growing anymore, same as karting. Nobody is selling lots of engines, compared to 20 years ago.
That quote can be attributed to 100cc racing though. I’ve raced classic 100s from 80s and 90s, the motors are very comparable. In fact a friend took a TT27 and was competing with the best of pre-2000 (VR98s, Reedjets, DSEs) the other week. As a beginner any engines will do, right? So you can apply the same argument here..
So with that in mind, single-spec racing is more complicated. You go from being able to buy any engine and go racing anywhere, as used to be the case, to having to buy one single-engine that will restrict you to racing in one class when faced with the possibility of several. That means there may be circuits you can not race at. that is certainly the case in the UK. How is that less complicated?
From a customers perspective you go from “You can’t go wrong with what engine you buy, you’re a noob, so don’t worry there’s grids everywhere” to “You might buy an engine, and suddenly not have a grid to race against because the market can change or whatever”. This is a failure of governing bodies though as well as market dynamics. I want to say here, what I think SHOULD be the case doesn’t mean I believe it WILL be the case, nor is my favoured type of racing without issues.
So no spec-racing isn’t ‘less complicated’, it’s more so. The conversations with newcomers is monumentally complex, and I’ve had many. I recall once a forum member on K1 spent £6K on a TKM 4-stroke. He thought he was buying into a sport where you could race anywhere. He couldn’t, there was hardly any grids. He left the sport a month later.
It only becomes less complicated (surface level at least) once a person makes a decision, sorry, IF that person makes a decision and haven’t gone somewhere else.
These aren’t really ‘spec’ classes are they nor simple? If you somehow figure the web of classes and decide what you want… it’s far from simple once you get in. I’d hate to buy an X30… and find its out of date… or buy a PREVO Max and wonder why your engine doesn’t have a red top like everyone else. The happens, a lot.
No wonder in the UK the teams now dominate and we see ever fewer solo outfits.
Alan, this reminds me of Winston Churchill’s famous remark, “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”
I agree with you, in the part that says that having an all-powerful national federation that could mandate an easy path into the sport would be easier to explain to the beginner. This however could only be achieved by forbidding tracks and private organizations from running their own series, by being some sort of government approved monopoly. Apparently Australian karting is such a market, because of their control of the tracks’ insurance, I am being told. In most other countries, monopolies are not allowed anymore, and so the open market rules. In the same way that when I was kid you only could choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, now the sky is the limit. People seem to be able to choose between all kinds of different products, and like the variety of flavors and price points. Eventually the best products, or the ones best adapted to local conditions, win out. I guess we will have to continue to see a certain fragmentation as various brands strive for success. Some will achieve it by product quality, some with price, some with service, etc. and at the end, like in most industries, the top two or three will survive, and the others will leave the market. We are already seeing this, if you look at the karting industry globally. Most of the small artisanal italian producers are gone, and the top two or three factories have 90 percent of the market.
Why England still races Honda, or TKM, is I believe purely a British issue, about which I am totally ignorant. They must provide a valuable service to their customers, or they would go elsewhere. Typically, as the strong get stronger, they make more money and start trying to expand the market, rather than just steal customers from each other. At the moment, we are still in a retrenching phase, exacerbated by Covid. Companies are still leaving the Karting market ( see Bridgestone announcement last week), so we will have one less choice to be confused about…LOL
…or be forced to innovate to keep up with the competition for the market. Not “Open”, but limited by regulation.
Oh, I have witnessed this first hand growing up in the SCCA. (hard cough, “fill-in-the-blank” Motorsports) There are many Race Prep companies making a killing by charging thousands just to gain that tenth or two jump over the competition. Does it give them an edge, sure, but only of a tenth or two in a straight line. Where Driving, Race-Craft and Setup can give so much more. Is it perfect? NO! Does it give the majority a chance to showcase what they can do? YES! No matter what the situation, you are always going to have those with the means exhaust them to gain an advantage over the competition. That does not negate the lower budget team from being competitive!
Working for an automotive dealer in their service department, I have seen huge improvements over the last two decades in manufacturing consistency. Largely in part to improvements in machining technology. Automated CNC production lines have closed the gap in tolerances from batch to batch in the mass manufacturing process. I think everyone has heard of the time when well backed teams were buying up the Rotax (Pre-Evo) Max just to find the few gems among the stones. These days, even Rotax has stepped up their game. The new Evo’s are relatively on point with each other. Comparatively that’s why IAME was able tot ake such a large share of the Rotax market away from them. Improved Manufacturing Process. Of course, Rotax battled back with the Evo.
There will always be competition among the brands, that’s what drives innovation. Like what Alan said. As brands gain traction, there will be series driven competition around it. However, in classes like TaG, they are not limited by a single make engine or chassis. Only the limitations of the specs given by the manufactures themselves for homologation. The Engine produces this power and therefor is subject to this minimum weight to keep competition alive among them. Does that mean if you don’t have that brand, you cannot compete? No. It means you should probably pick what is going to work best for your situation. If you are 5’6" and only 140 Lbs then a older Leopard could be fast. If you are 6’0" and 200 Lbs, then maybe a ROK GP can put you on point with others all else being the same.
That’s the point. Each has different regulations that do not limit innovation, only parameters. This volume, X number of ports, port durations, power valves, no power valves, reed valves or whatever. Meet the requirements and go race. Those that don’t keep up, will be forced to improve their product or be pushed out of the market. The newer 100cc classes are growing because of the competition. VLR or KA, more will join the market as they see the interest grow as well. Most single make series are driven by the Manufacturer, but as classes expand and allow multiple makes within a given rule set, competition will follow.
This does not decrease the desire for SPEC classes. It simply changes who is looking to join which class. As a newcomer, a SPEC class is appealing. They don’t have to worry about whether they chose the right engine, because they are all the same. It (in theory) allows them to focus on driving and setup, making it less complicated during the learning process. Then, if the chose to take up another challenge, they have seen for themselves what works and what doesn’t from the sidelines. Tell me Racers do not watch other classes between their own heats. You learn who is pulling who and whether it was their corner exit or the muscle propelling them.
Karting Australia has a breakaway federation, and the UK has multiple series and tracks running outside of Motorsport UK.
My point isn’t about what can be done now, my point is that I never would have allowed single-make in the first place. I would have never have allowed 100UK to happen, as the MSA did back in 1988ish (what we now know as Formula TKM). This was the point of failure in my opinion where karting went from all enveloping sporting endeavor (all competitors racing under the same umbrella) to more a ‘hobby’ type of activity (becomes more consumerism based). It’s not black and white of course, but the shift is there.
The problem of monopolies only arises at the exact point a governing body sanctions a single-make class. Prior to that, with one set of technical regulations, there is no issues with monopolies because no manufacturer is blocked from building an engine to those specifications. As soon as the genie is out of the bottle, then the governing body has essentially screwed itself over.
You are right to say a governing body couldn’t block circuits and series from trading, that’s true. But it could wipe all single-make classes from it’s regulations and swap them for one set of technical regulations that any manufacturer can build to. No it couldn’t stop breakaways and independents from forming, that is true. Naturally this wouldn’t be a success anyway, I have never denied this.
This is why I talk at length about education and shifting culture. It’s probably a task to far me now.
Don’t agree. I don’t think people put enough time into the mentality of actually being a newcomer. They have a lot to worry about. We just aren’t asking the right questions.
Ask a newcomer this - What appeals more?
“20 different classes, and buying an engine only allows you to race in just one of those classes.”
VS
“1 class, and any engine you buy will be eligible”
Buying a kart is a hefty investment for someone on a lower income. I spend quite a large amount of time looking at second hand karts, and believe me it’s an absolute disaster zone nowadays for newcomers. Incredibly complex. Back in the day, you’d buy karting magazine, look at the classifieds, see “100 Britain Retirement - For Sale” and that was that, easy easy easy. You didn’t have to worry about which engine to buy because you’re a newcomer. You only had to worry about what class to buy into of which there was pretty much only one.
Now though? You have to worry about a whole lot more.
(all of these karts are what you could buy in the UK. Some you can race, some you can’t, some rarer than others)
EasyKart
Daniel Ricciardo Kart (is it same as EZ kart? No, but yes?)
TKM TaG
TKM DD
TKM Clutch
TKM on old British Homologated chassis (can race in historic TKM)
TKM 4-stroke
IAME X30 (with various Series number)
IAME X30 (pre-UK registered, i,e not eligible to race in official X30 competition)
Rotax EVO
Rotax PREVO
BMB (now defunct class)
Parilla Leopards (from the days when TaG was a thing here)
Parilla Lynx
KF (thanks CIK)
OK (i will include these type of classes despite not being spec because they’re re still part of the big picture)
KZ
Prokart
Suter Vampire
Aixro
ECO Motor
DART FQ250
IAME Spec Shifter (rare here)
Vortex ROK (previous incarnation)
Vortex ROK (modern incarnation)
Tillotson T4
Subaru
etc…
So the pluses and negatives of Spec vs no-spec, we can argue all day, I just have to push back on the notion spec racing decreases complexity because faced with that list of karts, in just one small country like the UK, it’s clear it doesn’t, it increases it vastly.
That list is the primary reason I would never have advocated for single-make racing when it came in, it needed to be resisted. The negatives far outweigh the positives, but you 100% need strong leadership and foresight from the governing bodies, of which there really isn’t any semblance of at all really.
I think we are talking about different things.
In Australia at club level we have
Cadets (9&12) with vortex mini rok
KA4 & Ka3 with the KA100
Tag 125 restricted
Tag 125
KZ - rarely
Open performance (twins etc.) - rarely
There are other classes in the book but they don’t have much of a following at club level.
At national level, that is where in my opinion it should be open season.
At the lower levels of karting, that is where the karter should be saved from themselves.
If a karter is set on racing the national classes they need to be prepared to pay, but club level racing should be kept on a tight leash so the differences between the cheque books doesn’t matter.
The KA100 and mini Rok platform is very close in terms of parity, the people that are going out and buying up lots of engines are falling for their engine builders magic sauce. Differences between engines are measured in .01 of a sec. and that’s as big as it gets, we all know the biggest gains are in the driver.
Which I think is the bigger issue, no modern, well maintained engine from Iame, Vortex or Rotax needs to be rebuilt after 5 hours.
Kart shops and engine builders that are pushing clients to buy the latest gizmo, or rebuild at closer intervals are doing more damage to Karting than anything else.
Racing at a national level may require that. But that is totally different to club level racing. National levels of karting will take care of itself, if the bottom of the pyramid is maintained properly.
