IMO I think that the top 10 in pro x30 or pro shifter should not be allowed to double dip and run in the KA100 class. They already have shown that they are at the very top skill wise in the pro classes. Why should they be able to drop down to a class where there are less skilled drivers and reduce their chances of a top 10 finish? What are your thoughts? Should the “big names” in karting be allowed to run ka100 and take away the chances of an up and coming driver when they’re already winning in the “pro” classes?
There’s no “lesser” classes at SuperNats. I want to see all the big names running as many classes as they can!
As for any other series/event, I could see the frustration. But with there not really any such thing as pro and amateur in karting, let them go for it.
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I’m a bit torn philosophically but as a KA guy the more the merrier in my eyes. And I always want to race the best of the best regardless of what class it is.
My biggest question is how would you regulate it? There are drivers like Brandon Lemke or Race Liberante that have been running KA100 because they don’t have the money to compete in the top level. Liberante was the Pro Tour S2 Semi-Pro champion back in 2019, Lemke is a USPKS TaG Champion, but if you restricted them from competing in KA100 I don’t think they would be racing much at all. Lemke only just started running X30 again this year after a 3 year hiatus. How do you decide who has to run X30 or Shifter, and how do you incentivize them to race there versus go somewhere else?
I also think that allowing X30 drivers to compete in KA100 is good for the drivers in KA100. It raises the competition level of the class, and ensures the drivers only running in KA100 have good competition. Drivers get better by racing people better than them, restricting who can race in KA100 could be hurting the regular KA100 drivers if they’re not racing the best of the best, arguably more than they would be “gaining” from the improved results.
My bigger concern actually goes the opposite way. Should we be allowing just anyone to be able to hop into an X30 or Shifter and go run in the “Pro” categories. There are a few drivers in the Pro fields I’ve seen over the last couple years that absolutely should not be in the category. Typically they’re not harming anyone, they’re just way off the pace, but I’d rather see some sort of requirement to be able to run X30/OK-N/Shifter before we keep the top drivers from stepping into KA100.
X30 is a spec-class so any kind of block on entry there wouldn’t correlate with the philoisophy behind these classes. In principle there should be A, B and C grids, like with motocross, but the commercial reality of spec racing works against this, for weird cultural reaosns that I find hard to explain.
These events are pay to play, the money is generated from entries. If you want to regulate the Pro Categories this way, then you need to off-set with an enormous increase in spectators to off0-set the potential losses.
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I feel personally called out here
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Maybe a way to “restrict” Pro X30 would be converting the engines to direct drive so the skill-set gets higher.
We could have the same exact conversation for Pros that race Master as well. Fair or not fair? I think it doesn’t matter, whoever is the fastest that day, in that event, wins. Hope it stays that way forever, otherwise you open up to things like it’s unfair that national drivers can race regional or local…it’s a slippery slope. Trophy goes to the fastest, regardless. Plus I think it’s healthy as it allows to have proper benchmarks
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I’ve seen people mention this before, as well as cap limits on classes at events like Super Nats and CKNA Grands. At the end of the day, the owners of these series want to make money. So convincing them to turn people away because they are “to good for KA” or because “100 entries is Briggs Junior is insane” just isn’t going to happen.
These series are going to accept anyone who pays the entry fee, from the super-talented/underfunded to the untalented/paid seat drivers.
Agree fully. I was disappointed to see some Masters complaining about the likes of Foré and Lammers being in the KZ Masters class in Vegas. “Participation trophy” mentality right there. You show up and enter whatever class you want and the best driver will win the race. If beating Lammers and Foré is tough for you, maybe SuperNats isn’t your event?
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I’m with you on this. As someone who got throttled by Lammers and that crew, I still can’t think of a reasonable way to exclude them from participating. Fore is already old enough by any measure of “Masters” age, so then what? They’re just faster drivers, and I want to compete against the best drivers I can.
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I completely agree on the Master’s category. If you meet the age or weight criteria for a Master’s or Heavy class, but have the skill to compete in the premier Senior category as well, props to you!!!
As for the pros running in amateur categories, it happens in all forms of motorsport. Go to a local motocross race and watch a pro rider clean the clock of all the local talent, go to a local dirt track and watch a pro driver vs local hot shoe, its racing. On top of that, calling an X30 driver a pro just becuase he’s in an X30 is a stretch…
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I haven’t seen restrictions on entry done outside of FIA licensing and I don’t know if that’s even still done (but I’m out of the loop).
Back in my day, you’d work your way to National A license within your country. Once you’d raced a set number of “National A” events and had your license signed by the Clerk of Course (i.e. Race Director) you could get an International B which would allow you compete in ICA Regionals (Europeans, Asian-Pacific etc). And you couldn’t compete in Formula A for example.
Then you had to finish in the top 33% of a regional race to get an International A so you could compete in Formula A.
But…this was in a time when ICA Regionals were massively oversubscribed, like 300+ entries in the class.
I can’t see that working in the US.
Having said that didn’t that used to be the case with the shifter categories? Like once you won S2 you had to go S1.
The issue of restricting drivers from ‘moving down’ once they’ve achieved a certain status can definitely have very negative effects on the future prospects of drivers who achieve the higher levels:
…being a platinum-rated driver often means it’s hard to find work if you’re not a factory driver being placed on teams to enhance victory opportunities or if you’re not relatively young.
“How unusual is it where everybody wants to be the lowest rating possible,” said Johnny O’Connell, who recently became a bronze thanks to his 60th birthday. “It prevents a lot of guys from getting work. The best example in my mind is Joey Hand. Ford leaves and he’s left high and dry because he’s a platinum (without a factory contract).
“I haven’t raced in five years,” continued O’Connell, the overall Rolex 24 winner in 2001 with Corvette Racing who could not find rides once his GM contract ended—but his platinum rating continued. “I would like to think I would have been racing if I was a bronze. It’s a crazy competitive environment now and I have empathy for any young driver coming up and trying to make a career in sports cars right now.”
Age being one of the many caveats in the often-convoluted ratings system, O’Connell’s new bronze status immediately opened up an opportunity in the GT America series this year.
A fast silver driver is golden, so to speak, because they are in demand for teams looking for a driver to carry its less experienced drivers while meeting the entry requirements that limit the use of pro drivers. link
To make sure, just randomly checked a club in the UK I’d never heard of (hampshire motocross club), and they have A, B and C groups, just like many places I know of. So the pros aren’t racing most of the amatuer competition. They are still placed in a ‘top category’. If all the pros turned up to said club race, then by default the A riders would become B riders or a A* category would need to be created. So it’s a bit unfair to compare to motocross
Not really relevant here because license status in GT racing can regulate things like time in pits(in a series like GT Cup for example) and so on. It’s a weird convoluted team game and not comparable to karting.
Tend to agree, professional motorsport is not really a like for like comparison. Sure they’re some paid drivers and a few free drives but it’s not like the whole of the X30 and KZ grids are salaried drivers.
But, the FIA licensing system did have you drop down if you didn’t race at that level after a certain number of years (think it was 5).
I’m not entirely convinced its a problem, unless there’s people missing out on racing at all. In that case, I think it’d be better if SKUSA just asked those racing in two categories to pick one.
I recall shenanigans from reading old mags about 100cc drivers not wanting to win certain races to avoid being forced into Formula K 135cc back in the day.
I should say, back to the point, I think karting was never healthier than when it had tiered classes. Certainly in the UK when we had 100 Britain, then National then Super National. I think we even had different tiers within them. Protecting new people from high-level competition is a good thing, and something iRacing has exploited much to karting’s cost.
However, when spec-racing arrives (in real life racing) over time a different culture develops. Central governing bodies lose power and the ‘fair racing for all’ starts to seep in and make tiered racing harder. I think this is part due to the inherent class fragmentation that develops.
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Ah yes, the Bonanno effect. 