Nope not a Tilly salesman . Im a retired Metal Fab / Diesel Mechanic guy with a Machine Shop have been building Street Rods and Harleys and High Horsepower Snowmobiles for alot of years and always like to look forward on things and what’s next to do. And make things exciting to be a part of. Im just a big supporter like people are about alot of things… I just think Tilly T4s are a great package and product ! And would love to see some new things come to Karting . Kind of like Electric Race Karts . I think there is a big place for them in karting too… And fully support it too. In Europe and US the Electrics are gaining traction… And Im OK with what people think about me and push back its great to hear there opinions and give mine . Thats the great thing about this forum its full of opinions and people get to share them… Thanks operators of Kart Pulse for that… Good luck with all the classes in 2025. No matter what engine and chassis you support !!!
Arrive and drive for a full weekend for 1K sounds very nice. Here you have to pay at least 2x that for a decent experience.
Renting a racing kart in Belgium costs over 150€ for 30mins…that’s roughly what it costs to run a KZ for 3 hours.
How does the T4 solve that? Instead of limiting it to one engine we would limit it to one engine and kart combo? Having a single kart manufacturer would only serve to restrict access and raise costs.
Oooh @tankyx was telling me about the IAME Benelux Ka100 championships…… 1500 euro all inclusive which seems pretty good. Not sure if that for the weekend tho or a day.
Don’t forget that if it gets popular, engine guys will find where we can massage things and uncover all the gray areas adding another $600+ to the engine cost.
I honestly could give a crap less which package is chosen (T4 or Ignite) but I do wish that they were used more as a league arrive and drive series fleet kart. The tier up from regular rentals. But that’s not really a thing around here. But it should be! For regular racing tho, kind of hard to not go the lo route in the states. The T4 would have limited opportunities as an owner kart for most of the USA, currently (I think).
I agree there should be a rental kart series that has Tillotson T4s or others as a league rental series to those who want to step up and are serious about competing beyond just bumper style rentals. And dont have the money or the resources to own one. Dont know if tracks would want to invest in so many karts and the insurance for them thou would be great. GREAT IDEA THOU … Dom…
Yeah the 2nd fleet investment part is what kills my idea.
Just want to say. Im not against the L206 series like people think. I just think the Tilly T4s have a place in karting for the after rental people who dont have the money to buy whole bunch of parts all the time to compete in top level of L206 class. And have a great starting point to start in gas karting and have a level playing field to compete in. Like the Electric Karting is bringing to the table and is growing. Thanks to Blue Shock Racing and K1 Speed and Circuit. I think people need to look into what Tillotson and Electric Race Karts are trying to do for the sport. As far as Electric Racing goes. Alot of Drag Strips are closing because of noise restrictions hope that doesn’t happen to kart tracks. But Electric Karts maybe the answer to help them stay open…
I personally think that the sweet spot for t4 and Ignite is league stuff. I was hoping to convince Keith to start a series for us. We’d buy the karts, he’d store them on site for us at the track and provide wrenching. He could buy like 5 of them to rent so others interested in trying the series could rent to try and then decide. I thought maybe we could get 10-20 guys willing to buy a kart if Keith provided the ecosystem to service and store them.
Does it solve the cost issue? No but yes. There’s still a 5k + upfront investment. But, if we had the service and storage solution as part of the league I’d go for it.
On a simple level we would use tire that would only require 2 sets a season or something, find efficiencies like that.
I’m just so tired of rental racing being about kart draw.
This is half a tangent, but bear with me…it has a related point.
The first vehicle I raced was indiginous to upstate NY, USA. It is called a “microd”, and the classic version was invented by a dad in the 1950’s. It is a WOOD framed vehicle like a kart, with a plywood body and simple conduit (EMT) rollcage:
The interesting part, which bears into this conversation, is that my dad and I BUILT our microd from a common planbook. The TOTAL COST was $475 in materials, and this was in 1990 pricing. So, with inflation, perhaps $650 today. Entry fees were $20, tires were rock hard and lasted 2 seasons (no prep.) There were no cash payouts.
Microds evolved in the 1980’s, gaining metal frames and suspensions instead of wood. The cost of these “new” ‘metal-frames’ versions jumped closer to a kart – $1200 or so. But all remained boutique or home built. Karts still seemed expensive in comparison.
What we’re seeing with pricing in karting is the convergence of technology into a refined product. Pricing is solidifying and escalating because there is no such thing as a “home built” kart any more. There is no avenue for the racer to cut costs through home production unless they’re a fabricator and willing to literally build a chassis. But even if they do that, the required safety items are prohibitively expensive and complex.
I think the escalation of costs is simply a function of progress. Much like drag racing in the 70’s has evolved from garage-built V8 muscle cars and tube-rail chassis into hyper expensive CNC and engineered motors and cars, karting is no longer 20’ of tubing and 4 tires.
The best way to reduce costs, IMO, is to “grow the pie” and generate a more viable used market. To that end, I think focus should shift to the “career hobbyist karter.” Karting, for anyone above age 21, is likely the END GOAL, not a ladder rung. We keep doing it because we love it for what it is. It’s also harder than most full-size racing, though it doesn’t get billed that way…There is simply no better return for performance capability on the dollar than karting. Full stop.
IMO, to make karting “cheap” again, we need long-term visionaries who are willing to build infrastructure. I can still count on 2 hands the number of major kart tracks in the country – those we’d consider world-class. But there used to be small tracks in all kinds of towns. Maybe we need to bring back the simplicity to the tracks also. They need not be 10m wide, 1.4 mi. long. Shoot, 2 lane blacktop width (24’), around 3/4 mi. long – and with innovative layouts – would be just fine… and cost far less to operate and maintain than the country-club tracks we’re seeing.
I think a track could be built for $250k (not including land.) (Think: parking lot with movable barriers.) That’s 250 people at $1000 each. I’d pay $1000 for unlimited use of a track for 5 years! Heck, that’s the going rate for a single year limited-use agreement at my local “world class” facility…
I think the horse has left the barn on chassis costs, except for those willing to return to a “classic” kart. So perhaps infrastructure costs need to stop driving the rest of the racing prices sky high… Motor costs will only become cheaper if we return to surplus industrial types where other markets drive costs down…or a plentiful used market.
The thing is, you keep making claims without saying WHY you’ve come to those conclusions.
It’s not a discussion unless we’re actually talking about why we came to an opinion.
If you look at the other opinions here, on nearly all
topics…. people share why they the came to a conclusion.
That’s a productive discussion vs, say, a Facebook comment.
If anyone says…
“x is going to be cheaper”
“y is going to level the playing field”
“z has a monopoly”
OK, fair enough… let’s actually unpack that. Why?How? Who’s not looking at Tillotson or BSR? Heck BSR is one of our top topics here. Great discussion, back and forth about EV “vs” gas karts. Economics, technical challenges etc. excellent stuff.
The whole reason the forums exist is to have a place for those deeper discussions, I think that’s why you’re feeling more pushback. Tell us why you’re thinking what you’re thinking. Then we have something to discuss.
That sounds reasonable, I don’t know about the specific category but considering the prices in the area I would guess it is for a single day.
Well OK Here is a video of the direction that Tillotson is trying to take the T4s in . Which I have been trying to explain for awhile maybe it just didnt come across like that sometime…
I’ve been following this conversation with some interest… Getting back to the original thesis of karting having priced out the average person, I would submit that the economy and stagnant wages has had at least as big an impact as the price of karts and consumables. I’ve been around amateur motorsport for close to 40 years (
) from autocrossing to crewing for a local SCCA region member in Regional then National Road Racing/SCCA Runoffs to road racing for a couple of years. Our kids raced Quarter Midgets, where I heard similar stories… the fields were much bigger in the past… there were lots more families participating. Numbers have dropped in lots of forms of amateur motorsport.
With wages having been more or less stagnant over the last 40 years and everyone having to work more hours or multiple jobs to keep a roof over their heads as costs go up, there is precious little bandwidth/money left for sports such as karting (or Quarter Midgets), even for those who have the drive and enthusiasm to be out there participating.
The TL;DR version- Long term macroeconomic trends have had a substantial impact on the affordability and accessibility of all forms of amateur motorsports.
All that being said, I’m grateful my family is in a situation where my twenty-something son and I can enjoy racing karts and spending time together. These memories really will last a lifetime.
Ted,
This kind of stuff is what makes Kp so great. I had no idea! Sign me up.
You forgot to factor in the worst case scenario of a total write off crash. That is usually much more expensive in a car than karting. Especially if the HDPE car has a loan on it.
How many T4’s are you buying? because I have only seen 2 on track at the same time in PA and Ohio and the owner of the track in Lorain owned both. There is enough Lo206’s to have fields of 30+ karts, I remember the days of 3-4 karts which some days just became lapping days, not that fun when spaced out.
A quick google shows $475 in 1990 is $1200 today. And that’s for a plastic roll cage with wood body. Just for accuracy.
My DE car has been paid off for over a decade but it was also our wedding getaway car. My wife has made it clear what’ll happen if I wreck it, and that scenario is far worse than being on the hook for a loan, haha