Is this really the future of shifter karting?

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This is just my opinion, based on what I’m seeing with Factory Kart in the U.S. karting scene. The idea of introducing young drivers to shifter kart racing is brilliant—it helps develop their skills faster and prepares them for the KZ or shifter kart categories. However, what I don’t see clearly is the fact that this is being done with a single-brand engine, where Factory Kart has complete control over everything.

Do you see where this is heading?

Remember when the Musgrave family was known for building the best Honda engines for racing? They charged outrageous prices for engines “prepared” by them, keeping everything under their control. Is that really where you want to go again?

If young drivers want to start with smaller displacement shifter engines, there are already affordable 85cc options available that aren’t tied to a single brand. In my opinion, this approach doesn’t grow the sport—it only grows one name: Factory Kart.

Do you really believe a shifter kart running a Yamaha, Honda, or any other alternative will have lower service costs than a KZ engine? I don’t think so.

This past weekend, I didn’t see the birth of a new shifter category. What I saw was just Factory Kart.

Is this really about developing karting, or is it just about selling products?

In my opinion, if you want to sell products, you need to study and improve them every year, with specialized people—engineers, quality materials, homologations, etc. Don’t let them sell you a dream. Let’s focus on truly growing karting.

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I get your opinion but if you want to see development, someone has to start and will naturally become a “monopolist”.
Time will tell if people actually like it and then, competing companies will try to get a piece of that cake as well. And there you have your competition and perhaps lower prices.

I also don´t really see what´s the problem about “just selling products” it´s a business, of course they will try to come up with new products to make more money.

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It’s a bit sus when a new member’s first post is a long critique of a certain business. That indicates an agenda. I know MRC has it’s fans and detractors, but let’s make sure if we are going to discuss this, that we are discussing the actual FZ class and not the reputation of the business in question.

If you’ve been around long enough, you’ll know that 99% of the products, classes, or programs that are introduced to “save karting” are simply free market options for whoever is offering the package to make money. There is very rarely altruistic motive to any introduction of another product in the karting industry.

I say let the market speak. If there is support for a cadet/junior/FZ shifter program, people will buy it and if there isn’t, people won’t buy it.

Personally, I feel that if you are going to introduce a new class to karting and want it to be successful, it has to provide some benefit over existing options. Generally that falls into one of the following categories: price, reliability, and speed. If you can make a cheaper or more reliable or faster option to what already exists and has infrastructure, then there is merit to the product being trialed. If it doesn’t improve in one of those criteria, then it’s simply an exercise in marketing and trying to make an extra buck at the expense of others.

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Let’s fact check some things here.

Single-make categories aren’t new. In fact, more racers in US karting are competing amidst single-make categories (Briggs, Iame, Rotax as current examples, Yamaha KT100 as a past example) than are multi-manufacturer categories.

Musgrave Racing Company (MRC) never held anything under their “control” during the Honda era. MRC was just one of the various builders/dealers, and plenty of folks were winning races on Honda engines powered by Swedetech, Fisher, etc.

Yes, 100%. The difference in operating RPM means that maintenance intervals will be vastly different from a KZ. The FZ is a dirt bike engine after all. Anyone from the Stock Honda era remembers worry-free 40-50hr bottom end intervals.

Let’s not forget parity, which was one major frustration from the Stock Honda era. '99 cylinder vs. '00-'02, not to mention wide variability.

Personally, I’m in favor of what Factory Karts is doing with the introduction of the program, and my stance is not partial to Factory Karts being the proprietor here. The revival of a junior shifter class can be a great thing, and the addition of a cadet platform can only be a net positive. Nothing is stopping others from bringing out additional competing platforms (hey @CrocIndy and Motori Junior KZ!), and nothing is foricng you to buy any of them.

It was nice to see some decent numbers in those classes at K1. @Peter74 - do you not want to see the Factory platforms succeed? If so, why?

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Personally, I’m hoping they make a spec 250 superkart class with their offering, so I can buy a superkart and go play… Or even better, a 32mm shifter chassis with 250 powerplant and superkart bodywork…

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While I’m partial to our Motori Seven program, my ultimate goal is just to get kids in shifters. We are looking at developing racable parity between the two as well as the old Honda 80s floating around here in the Midwest. We are also working on detuning them for cadet chassis to have one that can run with the FZ65.

I wouldn’t even care if other manufacturers over in Europe got on board the 80cc KZ train. Let’s bang gears.

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It is very suspect, but then again he’s not exactly wrong. I’m assuming the OP is referring to how Factory Kart have been cozying up lately with several race promoters by holding demonstration runs at events like the SKUSA Supernationals and Rotax USA.

SKUSA’s Pro Kart Challenge now has “local option” classes for FZ65 cadet, FZ85 junior, and FZ125 senior shifters. The Fz125 class is still being open Rok and Stock Honda at the moment, but the 65 and 85 classes look to be exclusively FZ Factory Kart. It does strike of a kart company trying to establish their own market, to the exclusion of everyone else that may have a similar product.

But there lies the problem, the OP mentions “there are already afforable 85cc options available…”, but I don’t think there are as many options as he may suggest. There are the old Honda CR80 and CR85s that used to plentiful 20 years ago, and maybe a few old Yamaha YZ85s here and there. But Honda stopped manufacturing the CR85 back in 2007, and has no intention of selling any 85cc 2-strokes in the future it seems. So while there’s an accessory market still around for Honda 80cc shifter karts, sourcing an actual Honda engine means being lucky enough finding a used one for sale.

Then there’s the new Motori Seven L8 shifter engine, but so far they’re the only Euro KZ engine manufacturer with an 80 shifter motor. His argument could be how Factory Kart is trying to establish an exclusive karting class, a “monopoly”, before any other kart company can offer a competing product. And they can’t because, except for Motori Seven, none of the other KZ engine manufactuers have an 80 shifter product to offer right now.

But the Euro manufacturers are guilty of doing the same thing. When a KZ shifter class is offered, do they open it up to Hondas, or any other Moto-based engine as well? No, in most cases, it’s strictly the domain for CIK-homologated KZ motors. With Vortex’s Rok Cup, do they offer a place for a Stock Honda, a TM KZ, or an IAME 125 or 175? Again, the answer is usually no.

That has been the method of operation for a lot of kart manufacturers and kart orgs. in the past 10-20 years, establish your own exclusive market, to the exclusion of everyone else.

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While I’m not exactly sold on the FZ program, I don’t mind it either. I believe it’s mostly going to stay a regional package to California and maybe Arizona. The FZ85 class appears to be open chassis as the winner was on a birelart. The FZ65 is a whole spec package as apparently they have to sell that engine paired to a Factory Kart per the agreement with Yamaha (or at least that’s what was said at supernats).

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I am for anything that’s putting younger/more drivers in shifters.

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Lots to chose from, I’ll go with this for now….

If we’re talking about karting… Can you give examples of the “outrageous” pricing you mention? MRC seemed to be in line with other top builders like Swedetech, DDR and so on?

For anyone that didn’t like those prices or quite need that level of preparation, drivers were still able to utilize any other builder or do the work themselves if they wanted. Based on this, I’m not clear on how you reached the conclusion of MRC “keeping everything under their control”?

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Was it an actual Birel chassis the 85 was mounted to, or was it a Factory Kart badged as BirelArt? The FZ65 shifter demo last November at the Supernationals had several karts branded with other names, such as Benik.

It was stated during the demonstration run that all of the karts running there were Factory Kart chassis, some badged with other brands, that they had an agreement to only install FZ engines on Factory Karts, and that other chassis brands could purchase full, turnkey Factory Kart FZ65 packages with their own chassis branding if wanted.

No idea if this Factory Kart chassis only agreement also applies to their other FZ engines, there was not much detail about their other FZ motors during the demo. It seems odd to me if there is an exclusive chassis agreement with one size FZ motor, but none for their other sized engines.

That is one issue I have with this FZ engine program, we’ve been discussing this new engine platform on this message board for over a year now, Factory Kart has been very coy about whether you can buy an engine separately from them, or you’re forced to buy the whole turnkey package if you want to drive an FZ shifter.

I did not see any info if one could buy the engine separately or what they might retail for on their website. This whole situation wouldn’t even have been brought to light if one of the interviewers didn’t directly ask the question last year at the demo run.

I wouldn’t say being silent on such an important point about the FZ engine program as dishonest, but it does come off a little unscrupulous.

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So many layers to peel off…here is my take.

I think that the approach of “whatever goes, as long as more people buy into it” is very, very short sighted. Of course getting numbers high is great, as long as the program has backing, a future, a progress for the user. Otherwise you make money now, then you lose the customer forever as there’s no outlet, gone from the sport. After spending $11K for a 65cc shifter, maybe you have some expectations for the long run…

Slapping a motorcycle engine on a kart has proven (many times over) to be a bad proposition (except for the ones who sell it, as margins are way higher than what we see in karting). But motorcycle manufacturers simply do not care (and they shouldn’t) about our numbers, plain and simple. So great to see high numbers locally, hope they don’t turn into expensive paperweights like all others did…Honda we know how it ended (aging platform, end of the line), KTM is almost belly up, Yamaha keeps piling up losses, lowering guidance and pulling out of markets…guess what happens next?

I see the other alternatives (motori 7, ROK, KZ10ES etc) as a much more viable, factory-baked option that offer a more transparent value proposition. You are not tied to a chassis or a team, the manufacturers are fully vested and present in the sport, the product is used for its intended purpose. Just my $0.02, of course it’s a free market!

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I will counter that a bit. Motorcycle engines on karts pretty much created gearbox karting and took it to levels it would never have reached. In fact it’d never even existed most likely. If we look at the history of the sport the back bone of gearbox karting is fundamentally motorcycle engines. Whether that be the RD250 for 250 international, or all the other stuff.

Now, you are absolutely correct in saying eventually they become unsustainable as the manufacturers don’t care and you’re left with no supply. I just wanted to add some historical context.

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I thought the same thing. This feels like another post by that @Richard_Rubenstein guy who seems deadset on slandering Factory Karts. Getting kind of ridiculous.

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yes, decades ago…world has moved on since then!

I don’t disagree with your opinion, but the context of 20+ years ago is gone. Both UK and Italy had more motorcycle manufactures that I can dare to count, endless supply, parts everywhere. The supply chain was also loaded with pipe and accessory manufacturers…that world is gone. Yes it worked, now it’s not the same and it won’t ever come back. We used chainsaw motors too, but I wouldn’t count on them for the future either

Trying to force older models thinking it worked then, so it must work now, is not always wise. But time will tell, I’m just saying in the context of modern karting, all attempts pretty much ended badly, now there is only one actor pushing the product again. And the motorcycle manufacturer going extra lengths to disguise/take distance/cover their rear from their own involvement should be a red flag right there as far as future support

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not ridiculous at all. There is a long list of people that have similar situations. And a long list of people that are happy as well. So it all depends on which camp you are at, for sure it’s very polarizing. The fact that you were treated well doesn’t negate that others weren’t

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It has moved on but its worth noting that gearbox karting’s success is entirely built off the back of motorcycle engines that dominated for decades. One could argue it still very much relies on it with TM given they are a bike engine manufacturer as well.

What we are seeing here is a one make option that differs from the historical options of course but in terms of stability… we are seeing the FIA lowering homologation requirements from 50 to 25 for KZ.

Outside of TM no manufacturer is selling a ton of engines in shifter. We dont have Maxter any more for example. Its not exactly a great business landscape for anyone.

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In response to the OP:

Factory Karts doesn’t control the supply of engines for the FZ class. Our OEM will sell you as many as you want. Minimum order quality is three hundred engines. We aren’t living in the penthouse and eating filet mignon off the backs of our customers.

Both Birel and Compkart were represented in these classes. Wes Lee was running a real fluoro yellow Compkart with Freeline parts. The only Factory exclusive is a cadet kart that really works as a shifter - good shift linkage, 4 wheel brakes, chassis designed for a lot of power. We offer it to teams who control their branding and whose main chassis manufacturer doesn’t make a kart like that.

These engines should be less expensive to run than a KA100, let alone a KZ. An FZ125 piston kit is available online from Ronayers.com for $150. A crankshaft and conrod assembly is $375. If you burn up a rod on a KZ how much will that cost you? The FZ125 does not exceed 12,400 RPM; what do you think that does for stress on the internals and lifespan compared to other 125s that reach 14,000?

At least three motorcycle OEMs are continuing development of 2-stroke engines and karters will be the beneficiaries of their large engineering budgets and advanced manufacturing technologies. If you want to talk about quality materials, take a look at an FZ125 connecting rod. It is copper plated except on the bearing bores - this allows them to then carburize only those areas so that when quenched they are hard enough to run roller bearings directly on them, without affecting the fatigue life of the rest of the rod.

There is still plenty of room at the top of the market for the KZ engine - our 125 makes 10 horsepower less and has a higher center of gravity - but we are confident that we will be able to contribute to the growth of shifter karting.

We invite you to drive one the next time you’re in SoCal.

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I am personally quite against the entire ethos of putting children in gearbox karts at the age of 9 or 10, for the following 2 fundamental reasons:

  1. Mini karting is, in my opinion, already too fast with the current state of affairs. I’ve always personally pushed to investigate ways to slow down the GR3 category (the FIA homologated version of the monomake mini offering), which culminated in the Mini XS homologation (longer story for another day). Fundamentally, tire manufacturers have begun a performance war on the mini side after Vega begun creating their mini tires with the XM4 compound, which snowballed. The slower monomake categories exist to fill a gap, which are adequate for the purpose of what (again, IMO) mini karting should represent.

  2. The basics of karting will always and forever be single speed racing. I believe jumping to gearbox without having mastered single speed racing at 100% is detrimental to the development of a driver over the long run, if the actual objective is to make a career out of racing. Moreover, there is a direct correlation between drivers being very fast in direct drive all the way up to the senior category, moving to gearbox and immediately excelling there as well, more often than not mopping the floor with people that have been running the category for years. (Powell, Nakamura, Morgatto, Stolcermanis, Antonelli, Slater, Bertuca… The list can go on and on).

I understand there is some sort of junior gearbox driver’s culture in the US, so my opinion on the matter is very much European / from a regulatory perspective skewed. I just don’t see the added value of taking this step this early in someone’s development, without having even scratched the surface of the basics.

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When I raced 250 National back in the 80’s and 90’s in the UK there was a wide variety of motorcycle engines being used in that class and honestly it didn’t matter if you had a KTM, Honda, Yamaha etc. it was possible to win with any of them and tuning was more or less open.
I know this was a different era when the supply of two strokes was far greater but I always liked the fact that it was not a one make series.
It’s too bad that there are such limited options for engines these days.

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