So what did i miss? Checo punted Max and then Russel squealed?
Uh, not even close…
Allegedly Checo purposefully spun in qualifying back in Monaco to keep Max from setting a time to beat him (similar to Rosberg and Schumacher in the past), and Max is holding a grudge from that. When Checo requested to be let by again in Brazil so he could gain max points on Leclerc to try and take 2nd in the championship, Max refused. So now the Red Bull boys are pissed at each other or they have been pissed but now it’s finally in the open.
Ah. I can taste the anger from here. Good. My evil plan is working.
I just not seeing the same things lol. Maybe I’m a Max hater, but I see someone who absolutely relied on the other driver yielding.
I’m not even convinced he would have made turn 2 without going off track at the exit if you removed Hamilton from the equation. He made no attempt to slow for an angle of attack which is much tighter then the normal line. By the way, very common Verstappen tactic, pretend the other driver isn’t there.
From Hamiltons perspective, Verstappen is around front wheel level with his rear wheel when Hamilton commits to the corner. He’d expect another driver to back off for the right (and he also can’t let Verstappen walk all over him).
Its almost a carbon copy of the Ocon-Verstappen clash in 2018. Admittedly Ocon was unlapping himself, but in the end the penalty was received by him.
Its similar but slightly different to Schumacher Montoya in 2001 (inside driver attacking into turn 1) and Schumacher, being a smart driver, backs off for turn 2 and hey presto no one crashes.
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Hamilton knew he would be there and made zero, absolutely zero accommodation for that possibility… Lewis isn’t stupid. I think it’s perfectly plausible Max would have made the corner as well.
I think this is what you get when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object. Lewis won’t yield and neither will Max. Hence when Lewis buried Max at SIlverstone. I see this specific incident as 50/50 really.
Also your reference to 2001 is not an equivalence. Firstly Montoya is attacking on the inside of T1. Secondly there’s grass run off and there was no chance for Schumacher to attack the right hander. Montoya didn’t give him the opportunity for that to be even an option. And he didn’t back off really… he fought to maintain that position. he didn’t really back out willingly… he had no choice.
We can all take a frame that helps us prove our point Alan.
Unfortunately the same angle isn’t readily avaliable but looks the same to me.
Again, it’s not an equivalence. Schumacher’s couldn’t physically put his car int he same place Verstappen did, partly because he had contact with Montoya which pushed him wide
where he actually lost the rear trying to actually BE in the position Max was able to get into
He didn’t give up the corner as you initially suggested. He was fighting the car until it was not possible any more.
And if we compare room I would argue Schumacher would have happily done exactly the same as Max if he wasn’t pushed off by Montoya. (I don’t think Montoya was in the wrong either). IN fact that’s likely. If he never intended to fight into T2 he would have conceded T1 and not fought the position, which is the opposite of what he did.
Vs
So nah, not the same. For me Verstappen had earned the right not to be driven into (why would you drive hard at the apex like that? Unless you equally wanted to make a statement), but it’s not without risk.
I think you have hit upon the major difference, risk.
Verstappen has nothing to lose. Schumacher was at the beginning of a championship campaign. We all know Schumacher would crash into someone if he needed to but he only when it was the last resort.
Verstappens attitude is summed up in this quote:
“To be honest, I went around the outside, and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space,” he said, adding: "I just went for it, he didn’t leave me space, so I knew we were going to get together.
“It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds. It wouldn’t have mattered anything for my race, because we were just way too slow.”
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Was just about to bring up the Ocon verstappen thing from 2018.
Ocon also received a 10 second stop and go for that
Verstappen also said he knew they were going to crash, and that it cost Hamilton the win and didn’t matter for himself anyways because he was too slow.
He tends to stick himself into places where he shouldn’t be and never yields
Max gave up his right to not be driven into after Brazil and Saudi last year
(Not a serious comment)
I just read that Adrian Newey said Max did in fact brake test Hamilton on purpose last year
Yes, as I said, not comparable incidents.
Yes, as expected.
Hamilton said " I think it’s natural when you have the success and the numbers on your chest, that you become a bit of a target. But it’s okay, it’s nothing that I’ve not dealt with before.“”
Acknowledging Max isn’t the type of drivers to back out of these kind of (legitimate) moves, unless your position is T2 moves are totally off the cards forever. He, as far as I am concerned, knew the likelihood Max would take the inside line and drove straight at the apex. he afforded, and I repeat, zero room.
Do you seriously believe that Hamilton, the Lewis Hamilton, thought “Max will back out”. He’s the greatest driver of all time. He made no attempt to avoid an accident. Most people, when a driver is on their inside, concede, or afford some space. He afforded none. Did he have a right to drive straight at the apex… the stewards have concluded yes. I disagree… but there you go.
However…maybe if we had a more relevant example would be off a driver attempting the outside move into T1 like Max did, then the defending driver conceding T2 … we could put this one to bed…
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Maybe it was more of a message to max for next year? When merc might fight for the championship?
In 2021 Lewis played it safe and let max get away with some shenanigans, but maybe he’s trying to tell him that sh*t ain’t happening anymore
I can’t stand Max…I think he’s a massive f’ing prick.
…but I feel like I’m the only one who thought that was a racing incident. Neither one gave ground, both of them stood strong fighting for a position (insert Senna quote). If I put myself in Max’s shoes I drive it exactly the same and put myself in Lewis shoes I also play it exactly the same. They both paid a price for their actions, neither was going to concede.
It’s what comes out of Max’s mouth that continues to make him the biggest prick on the face of the planet.
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Lewis is no different in terms of shenanigans. He buried Max last year in the biggest crash of the year.
I think they are both as bad (or as good as each other). Max has to make the move, Lewis has to drive straight at the apex as Prost did in '89.
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he’s isn’t that. The same way Lewis isn’t a prick (and I remember the days when Lewis got a LOT of flack… )
I think we’ve all worked out you can use examples from other incidents. My only conclusion from these videos is you have to be right alongside going into t2. Raikkonen was basically wheel to wheel. Verstappen was front to rear as was Ocon a few years before and Schumacher even further back.
I still think Max just turned into to someone who was clearly there and Lewis tried to back out of it when he realised Max was turning in anyway. In this case (Brazil) Max knew what he was doing, did it anyway and then told everyone afterwards that he knew what he was doing.
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As someone who’s met both of them (admittedly a while ago and people change), i concur with @Andy_Kutscher conclusion. His dad is exactly the same.
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Nope
The only difference here is Schumacher conceded the corner, and Lewis drove straight at the apex. The approach to T2 is basically the same.
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What are you seeing, Rai and Schu’s front wheels are basically touching! Vers are maybe midway at best.
I’ll pretend not to notice its also damp offline in the rai schu example too.