Hairpin turn in low hp kart

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

On the off chance that anyone is finding this thread interesting, moving some discussion here. On the subject of vision:

As I approach complex I take a broad view of the complex coking down the straight.

As I get closer my attention switches to A. This tells me it’s almost braking time.

As I get ready to hit brake I first look and lock in the apex B.

Brake, attention shift to B stays there until I am content the turn is on track.

However, Just prior to turn in, I did a quick attention shift to C. I want to lock in the rubber patch I want to end up in as I swing into E.

As you are right on it or just before first apex, attention goes back to B, but split second just to confirm not wide. Immediately back to C.

Here’s wher your head swivels. As you come around through C, you are looking ahead briefly to see the island and rubber patch at E. But just a glance and immediately look out to the exit of the complex D.

As you go past C, having briefly glanced through E to H already, your head is turned to the right locking in distant exit up to right.

You go through E not seeing left. I deliberately DO NOT want to focus on the left side of track at all. So, I look thru the E turn, see H, look to exit, and get on gas as early as possible. Zoom.

Right before I pass H I am looking briefly at I, lock, then move focus uphill to exit.

I cross H looking uphill to left J.

So basically I am looking broadly at a complex. I get specific as I approach each turn. However, at turn in, I am already looking to where I need to place myself next.

I play this game of trying to keep my information coming in early and forwards rather than reacting to the apex as I get to it.

Through the entire thing, I am constantly aware of where I am relative to the distant exit at the top of the hill. That is where my eyes go if not locking in points of interest.

Does any of this make sense?

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

@Stacker Stacker then said: "Yeah, it is pretty clear to me now what you mean. I think this sentence really sums it up I think: “I get specific as I approach each turn. However, at turn in, I am already looking to where I need to place myself next”

@Bobby Bobby said: “Having a think about this a bit more. If there is a case where there is not much of the track visible until after the apex of a corner should the focus then be on the apex until you can see more?”

@Bobby That’s an interesting question. It’s my next turn, actually. Let me find it on video. I think you always need to be looking for the way out, personally. Do you mean a blind turn like the one at top of hill?

Top 2 pics: When I see this it means I am ready to turn. Brake at strip. Eyes quickly to locate tip of apex as it becomes visible.

Bottom 2 pics: I have turned into apex but my attention shifted to the distance to locate the track that is obscured.

I am not looking left at the outside of the turn, I am looking ahead. I most likely shifted attention just prior to turn in to inform the turn in.

I don’t have time here to gaze down at apex. It’s too fast and I need my eyes on the distant exit to keep narrower out.

Drive it out!

FYI this is all happening in under 2s. It’s a matter of training yourself once you start knowing the track.

[tjkoyen]

There is a lot of good information here, but maybe we need to break this up a bit into a couple threads, since we are pretty far from the “hairpin turn in low hp kart” now that we are discussing KZ driving complexes of corners in KartKraft and eye tracking.

@KartingIsLife?

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

True, but the vision stuff, seems to be independent of platform. It’s equally relevant (I think) to rentals. Just a lot more deliberate at 9hp.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m wading in waters I am not qualified to swim in. (Coaching). If you think I’m taking them down a path that isn’t helpful, LMK.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

Just to report back once again. I went out for a single session yesterday in the evening and I got myself a 49.126s (Early in the session, lap 3). Slightly damp, 14°C. Average of 49.482s and one lap over 50s. I wanted to keep my form and see if it was not just pure coincidence that I got it under 49s. Although the time doesn´t show it, I confirmed it that it was not a coincidence.

I will get to the point. Losing out in S1 by .3s, .15s in S2 but gaining in S3 by .1s and improving my average S3 time (over 10 laps) slightly. I would like to hear you out on what could possibly be the reason for improving in S3 while heavily losing out in S1 and S2 because of the slippery conditions. Track was cold, tyres were too. Poor braking. It was slightly slippery at the entire complex so it was the same for all the corners, but S3 felt good. I will share the video here so you can take a look at what actually happened in S3. Let me know if you have any idea, as this could mean much bigger improvement in good conditions as S3 can only be faster, therefore it could get me closer to 47s. I do have few things in my mind, but I would like to hear some different opinions.

By the way, I found the happy hour at my track: 17-25°C, <50% hum, night.

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

Ok talk us through this.

What’s going on in s1 that has you off 3/10?

S2 is .15 slower. I guess that makes sense in that s2 begins at switchback and ends at entry to 8? So, mostly WOT for the entire sector.

Given that s1 involves more turning 1-3 and a major deceleration into switchback, those two sectors, on the surface, make sense to me given that it was colder/slipperier. You’d expect to lose more in s1 and less in s2.

What is different in s3 then? You actually got faster there. How?

It sounds like a good job is in order? Are you thinking it was solid given conditions?

There’s bound to be something different in s3 that you can capitalize on. Let’s see footage.

Edit: I’m gonna take a guess and you backed off a bit into 8 and are using fewer lifts? Something has to have changed into the transition up to 11. There doesn’t appear to be much to gain beyond 12 apex.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

S1 was just slippery. I understeered quite a bit through there and I needed more/longer lifts to keep the kart stable. Pretty much it I think. Same line but with more corrections.

S2 was tricky at the switchback, more understeer, earlier braking as my brakes were cold. I badly hit the apex at the exit on two occasions, losing out about .75 - 1.25s both times which caused some variations in laptimes. 6,7 all good, just as always.

S3. Interesting one. First off, I was caught napping first few laps as my brakes were not good, running wider, faster through 8,9. I must say that I was not prepared for that. After getting used to it a bit, it was alright. 10,11,12 felt the same but when a track is damp like it was, it was much harder to hit apexes at 10,11. Turn in as much as you want, but you will be slightly wider at the apex. This makes me think it was smoother weight transfer which helped through there. Also lifting at 11 fair amount of times, but just for a split second. Maybe this had some effect as well, not really sure.

Here is the drive:

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

That was really good work, Pavle. If I’m not mistaken, I am seeing some pretty big changes.

As to what changed, specifically between outlap and lap 3: In L3, you did not lift unnecessarily in 8-10.
In other words, you didn’t try to lift to brake.

I sat down originally looking at the laps turn by turn and doing what I did last time, sorta critiquing like I did last time. I think its probably more useful to speak more broadly about the whole session.

I think your driving got really interesting lap 4 onwards. In fact, your laptimes were “poor” because you were dealing with newfound speed. You started nailing 1-4, such that it messed you up into switchback.

Your next interesting bit was also much improved. Your line is good 8-10 and your 11-12 now delivers a really powerful run out. You nailed it several times.

I think if you could put together a lap of pieces of laps 4-10, you’d have a very quick one. Overall your line is great and your driving is very precise now. You are hitting your apexes consistently etc. You figured out that lifting like you were, to slow, is no good. But you learned a lot from messing around lifting.

All three sectors will likely come together soon. I think the pieces are all there for 48s in those conditions. The limiting factor is how hard you push. You look really great overall, but I think there’s some timing in 8-10 that you are still working out.

Is it possible to hang around when the top guys are driving and listen to how they sound going into 8? That’s the one place on track, 8-9, that I didn’t see you really “get” tonight.

The other place I can’t tell is switchback. It’s too dark and even if I could see it, I am not sure whether its possible to have a strong run out from that turn.

On the plus side, you crushed 1-4 and 11-out. Your driving overall was really improved laps 4 onwards and you found speed, I think. You smoothed out quite a bit in those two sectors.

So, in conclusion, great work! I think you can easily go higher on the leaderboard. Just smooth out the middle bits, I think.

In any case the change you made at 1, which appears to be that you gave up a little coming into the turn, worked. You started coming out of 3 faster. Try this at 8.

Small thing but in lap 6, you allow the kart to move right on track at 7. You then move kart back to left for 8. The kart might like this as it allows you to potentially time that such that the swing back to left is followed by turn in to 8. Sorta what @Matthijs_Hofman was talking about in terms of polar swing. Matthijs, care to elaborate?

9 and 10 were a hair off of your best for session. These two laps were excellent. Fix 8 and I think those are 48s.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

So you think the driving was better after lap 4? Interesting. I felt just the opposite, after I made the first big mistake I was not done but I needed time to restart a bit. That is very interesting to hear from other perspective. Driving felt heavy and a bit forced after the mistake. Probably just just a distraction from mistake that made it look slower/bad driving.

It is possible to be there when the fastest people drive, especially next week. 50 people will be there to put a fastest lap and try as many times as they can in a period of just 7 days. So the track will probably be full of drivers around 49s and 48s at about 19-22h. Great chance to maybe chat with someone or to simply watch the 8-9-10-11-12 complex from the stands for perfect view.

@Bimodal_Rocket

The other place I can’t tell is switchback.

Nothing much here I think, eariler braking and more understeer caused slower times I think in comparing to last time. It can be taken much more aggressively when the track is at its best so that can make a big difference.

L6 T7: It could be one of the things that can potentially help. I am trying to work on something similar into hairpin. But in hairpin I am too late on that swing (partially because I have no straight and I am coming from turn that sends me at opposite side of the track) and I cause bigger understeer very often doing it. Here I am not doing it but I can start just a bit and maybe I can find some balance in between these two so I can maybe improve in both situations.

So some negatives but some positives as well from a slower session is good I think. I will definitely be looking to improve the next time I go out.

By the way, I started combining videos from different sessions for easier analyzing between the best laps so I can immediately see the difference if there is any. I might find something interesting and if I do, I will post.

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

Yah. I thought about it and it’s subtle but I felt your driving definitely got interesting after 4. You just couldn’t put the stuff you were doing well together with the hairpin and also 8. But, it looked to me like you did improve significantly in 1-4, 11-out.
It looked like you were carrying more speed into the switchback. The calmer entry to 1, the narrow 2-3, and the exit of 3 seemed to contribute to what looked and sounded like more speed passing 4 into hairpin. And, you crashed twice there wide which is consistent with “oops too fast”.
Also, it’s subtle, but you calmed your feet down and were doing a better job of using lifts where it could help to turn as opposed to slow down.
Maybe I am wrong but it also seemed that your 10-12 carried more speed through 12.

The rhythm looked better but still pushing a bit too much. But, a lot better, I think. Interested to see what happens next time.

Try using 7 to preload 8 left side a bit. I am doing similar at turn 1 at AMP. I used to come straight down right edge of track and turn in. I am now pre-loading the entry to 1 and it seems to work.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

Alright, I am glad that it looks improved. I will try to preload the 8, I think I was actually doing that last time a bit as the brakes were much stronger, I was braking earlier and more pressure was on the front left, bigger load.

Also, do you make that move to the right at AMP sharp or just gently pulling to right and then swinging to left? I mean do you tend to make that swing (to the right) in shorter distance or longer (bigger or smaller arc)?

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

I have been trying both. I’ll film it. I’d say enough preload to not upset the kart or make it feel like you are initiating a turn. It’s more like an attempt to tilt a tray full of water left then right without spilling it.

Here’s what I’m trying. You can see that I jog left before going right a bit to set up the left turn into 1.

I am unsure if correct, but I am trying to make it such that I slide less.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

I understand now what you mean. So it tends to be more gentle of course, as anything in karting that is connected with weight transfer, makes sense.

By the way, I just found out what was the direct reason for .3s loss in S1.
In the best run, I lifted only once, just before turn 2. In the last run, I lifted 3 times, 2 times into T1 and once before T2. This was, of course, caused by the conditions of the track, but I found what was (were) the thing (things) I did that initiated time loss. Conclusion. Everything you mentioned about lifting is correct. Do it only for rotation, not for slowing down (brake is there for that reason). Same also goes to S3. In 8-9 I need only one, maximum 2 lifts. I did like 3-4 when I did the best lap. That is what made that .1s in the last run, I think. Thanks for mentioning that, I wouldn´t really think about counting lifts without your advice!

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

Its a common thing. TJ took me to task for excessive inputs as well.

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

@Stacker

In 8-9 I need only one, maximum 2 lifts.

If you use more than one lift per turn, you are losing speed, probably. It should be possible to lift turn go 8, lift turn 9, run out to 10, lift rotate go.

It further is likely that you can then refine this down to 1 lift maybe or even none.

[Stacker (Pavle Smiljanić)]

Yeah, I think it should be like that, but the ultimate goal would be just partial lift. This would probably have the same effect but with smaller time loss. Although it is pretty hard to feel the throttle on these rentals, it can be done, so looking forward learn that.

By the way, I will probably be quiet for some time here. I don´t have much time to post as tests in school are coming soon, so not much free time. I will be sharing sessions next week as I will be quite often on the track but only if I find something interesting, otherwise I might only post a single fast lap and ask for help if something went wrong.

Also, will you be driving at NJMP again soon?

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

Yup. I have a few races coming up. I have a friend who indicated some interest in doing an endurance rental race which will be a new experience!

Yes, that’s basically what all the lifting turned into for me. I went from being off, to just partially, looking to feed power back in asap. But, that’s on x30, which is totally different than our heavy beasts! The rental kart thing is new to me as well, so whoever figures it out first can tell the other.

Study hard at school. You made great progress and good luck with the rest of the event! You are well on your way to winning fastest amateur.

[E13 (Elias Shirley)]

Im a bit late to this massive thread but can you gas and brake? some rentals cut the engine but some dont. I race 4 stroke and one of my “breakthroughs” was almost never getting off the gas. Really rotates the kart and keeps rpms up.

[Bimodal_Rocket (Dom Callan)]

I’m not hugely experienced in rentals yet but there’s been some discussion about this.

Some folks feel that dragging brake while on gas at starts can help with starts but jury is out. We do rolling starts so no idea.

In general, it seems to me that brakes are pretty optional in rental karts on most of the turns on full sized outdoor kart courses.

So, at turn 1 liberator (end of straight), for example, I can very easily take the turn with zero braking, relying on wheel scrub to slow me down enough to apex.

But, it’s faster to settle the nose a titch with braking before turn in.

[E13 (Elias Shirley)]

In the hairpin you probably have to brake, maybe brake harder/earlier or maybe even the same but try and roll the gas in the turn.