I think the only part of the whole discussion I truly disagree on, is cost being so high for a KZ. Especially with regards of engines, I think the comment around $8K to have a fast engine was off-base. Especially on a TM platform.
Hi Alan, I moved to America (California) in 1990 the same year I packed up kart racing in the UK (250 Nat long circuit). Never driven a kart here yet but I just acquired a Topkart Rotax max for free so I’m going to go out and see if I still enjoy 4 wheels! If so I will race single speed not gearbox as I know how much work it is to maintain (or it was in my day at least). FYI if I was in the UK i’d be racing the historic stuff.
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But was it as popular in America in 2018, or before Drive to Survive? F1 has done a lot of marketing correctly recently, but I don’t think it would have earned those numbers off the racing quality before last year.
If AJ Meyers is saying it’s $8k, I would believe him. I think that’s even on the lower end of a competitive KZ from what I’ve understood. I know a top end KA brand new will run about $4,000, so doubling that for a shifter doesn’t surprise me.
Indycar was a niché sport in 2018 viewing figures wise. F1 has always struggled in America because of a cultural thing that is starting to breakdown a bit. But F1 has always had far greater potential in America then the modern iteration of IndyCar. Indycar largely relies on its heritage and the Indy500. There isn’t much room for growth there. The fact is almost no one is talking about Indycar during the off-season and between races… F1 on the other hand…
I think the mistake people make with modern racing is they look at series like IndyCar and say “the racing is great, F1 should copy that”. Expect F1 is so much bigger than IndyCar and the unpredictable racing isn’t good. Formula E has realised that, but alas too late. Them following the unpredictable model has meant they have failed to build a quality racing product that gains long term interest.
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I didn’t ask this as a “gotcha,” just to clarify, I actually didn’t know viewership numbers or popularity from then, you’re spot on with what you’re saying. I think there’s a place for the unpredictable racing but we need the storyline focused motorsports as well, if not moreso than unpredictable. If you have races with story behind them, the unpredictability will come on its own.
At the end of the day, if we want shifter kart racing to succeed, or any type of racing, we need to give the drivers a reason to want to be there. Right now, the reward for running doesn’t justify the cost of getting in for most. If we can get that figured out, the numbers would bring themselves.
Here’s a thott. F1’s success isn’t a bad thing for Indy car. To me, it suggests that, if there becomes more USA interest in F1, that’s a win for Indy car as well. Ultimately more eyeballs.
When I watch Indy it’s more race-centric and less of an “event” which, as a racer, I like. Sometimes I just wanna watch the racing and not have all the jibber jabber and theatrics of the f1 coverage.
as a racer I’d rather be out there with Romain and the gang, doing battle. F1 is a “show”, Indy is racers racing, hard.
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I do watch IndyCar myself because I just plain prefer seeing a car with no power steering. But it is definitely a ‘show’. The cars are designed with the specific intent of being better for the show. I just find it less high stakes, less meaningful, more throw-away due to spec chassis. I can’t tell you who is leading the championship from race to race. I have forgotten the last race already.
It feels like it lives of its heritage (where guys like Newey actually designed the cars)… but it lacks something for me. Same cars every year gets a bit boring. But I do understand WHY it’s like this due to economics. F1 is a monster that makes it very difficult for other race series to exist that are in any way like it.
I do see your point about a rising tide raises all boats, but F1 consumes everything in its path. It can’t even leave karting alone. Whether deliberate or not, it’s unstoppable.
The commentators even make a big effort to talk about F1 during Indycar coverage, particularly with regard to the McLaren team. F1 doesn’t return the favour.
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[quote=“Aaron_Hachmeister_13, post:43, topic:9043”]
If AJ Meyers is saying it’s $8k, I would believe him. I think that’s even on the lower end of a competitive KZ from what I’ve understood.[/quote]
Not arguing that, you can go to SRP and see their prices, pretty much that 8K so I get where it comes from and I see the value of what’s in it. What I argue is the definition of “competitive” engine. You can spend that, or you can spend way less and get 99% of the performance which is not the case in other categories that have to chase the unicorn engines. The part that was missed is that you don’t need all that investment to get a fast competitive engine in KZ and do well…which in turn is what you need to grow the base of the category at a local level and get the interest back. As you progress, any solid shop that knows what to do can put together a great package. Same with carburation, it’s a big leveling factor. So in my opinion cost differential is not really what stops the growth, not to mention in shifter you can make up for the gap in power in other ways. My theory is that if you swap AJ’s motor with one from mid-field, AJ will still be in the same spot. Not sure if the same can happen in X30
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I’m not sure I can agree to that. I remember talking to Kremers and he mentioned how 2017 and 2018, before he won the World Championship, he came to the races and drove 110% the entire weekend but never could find pace. In 2019 he came in expecting something similar but suddenly he had the best motor in the field and won pretty handily. If some of the motors engine builders are bringing to world championships can’t even compete, I see no reason why it would be any different at the national level of KZ racing. If AJ was on a $4k KZ motor, I don’t believe he would compete with Kremers, French, or Formal on their top equipment.
I actually believe unicorn (suitcase) motors are more prevalent in the open classes like OK or KZ versus X30 or KA. You can run a box stock KA and still be competitive up front, not sure about in X30 but I would imagine they’re closer than what can be found in KZ. I bought 2 KA’s for $1600 each, one when it first came out and one that was used for $1000 and a $600 rebuild/blueprint. Both of those motors are competitive nationally, I’d argue top 10 if not top 5 with a half-decent driver in it.
In KZ, it’s the complete program you have, not the individual engine.
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No one is selling KZ and OK as equal engines (well people shouldn’t). The point is to find and develop the best engine. However people do sell X30 and KA100 as ‘level playing field’ racing.
So if someone builds a monty KZ/OK engine then you congratulate the team and tuner. That’s the point of the class. With X30 and KA100, is someone builds a monty engine (and yes this is what everyone is trying to build… or ‘find’), then suddenly you have a problem.
Selling classes like KZ on ‘equal’ engines I think is always a big mistake. Sometimes it happens that the engines and tuners all kind of coalesce, but it’s not the fundamental point of the class. The governing body however, should consider the complexity of technology they mandate for when drafting technical regulations. There’s a right way to do these kind of classes and a wrong way. KF and OK are the wrong way.
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For shifters to grow, there needs to some long term stability and time to gather participants. It can take years to build a class. KA has been around for 5 years and it’s just becoming popular. The US shifter market has suffered some setback as far as stability goes. Right when shifter was gaining momentum with a discernable movement of X30 drivers moving to Stock Honda, the Stock Honda was replaced by a poorly launched replacement motor, which killed shifter class. The preeminent shifter kart organization needs to go all in with the KZ and the class will grow.
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Larry, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but why do you say the replacement engine for Stock Honda was poorly launched (presumably the 175 SSE) and killed the shifter class? And if that’s a fair reflection of the lived experience, in your opinion what are the lessons to be learnt and are there any immediate practical steps that could be put in place to change the direction? I’m asking this as an Australian outsider and with our own local issues with our Stock Honda class (albeit we race it on long/road circuit not sprint).
There’s no real money to be made with KZ, that’s half of the problem. Stock Honda wasn’t sustainable. it was never a ‘real’ class because it was based upon a production engine that was no longer supported by the manufacturer and it needed a ‘replacement’. You can’t have long term investment in a class where the production and supply is that unreliable and unpredictable.,
It’s natural for any organisaiton with distribution rights of a particular brand to go the single-spec route at SKUSA did with a new product to secure supply and revenue.
For sure KZ has stability because 125 gearbox racing hasn’t changed for decades. Fornula C (then Super-ICC then KZ) has existed since at least '83 and the motor packages are essentially the same formula. It kinda is the most stable kart platform that’s ever existed.
But how do you make money? Really it’s the FIA and ASN’s responsibility to promote KZ or pay someone too because it’s their class because as a championship organiser it’s not the best proposition.
Tom, Heck, I could be wrong. The good news is the 175 is now reliable but there were lots of problems with it when it was introduced and many switched over to RoK, which diluted the shifter entries in the premier USA series. I think the 175 was intrinsically reliable but the translation to the US market may have introduced factors that were not considered.
The lesson learned is make dead sure that the motor is reliable for the application and everyone understands how to tune the motor so that it doesn’t break. I would use the same spec as another series and in general not accept any “improvements”. I’ve seen a couple of successful classes killed because of “improvements” that were not fully vetted. Rotax in the US is virtually gone because of this.
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We have 24 shifters at New Castle today for a club race. 
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That’s great! To be fair though, NCMP is an outlier in so many ways compared to other clubs across the US. Facilities (Lots, world class) and location (Indy) just to start off.
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5 years ago LAKC had 69 shifter entries (across all shifter classes) in a club race. Total entries was 192. Beginning of the season but still a lot.
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I went for a quick look at this year’s lakc stats and
In the first three races around 80 and 90 entries in total between 7 classes from micro to shifters….
Whats going on? Clearly its not just shifters….
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The UK has seen a few clubs not run due to lack of entries while others are booming (mainly centrally located ones). The karting market is an extremely complex beast to get a grip on.