I get that New Castle is New Castle, but it’s still local club racing. I don’t think they will carry that number all year at every race but 15, probably.
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Is it all stock moto or KZ or mixed?
Mixed with weight breaks.
Moto, Rok, KZ, 175
Makes sense for the club to run them together but if we lumped four other engine packages together it would certainly make the entries even more impressive sounding for that class too. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
At Daytona Manufacturers Cup we had like 60+ TaG karts before, when it was a mixed engine class.
If you could get everyone on a Rok/KZ and maintain the entries that would be the ticket.
I agree that if we embraced KZ, the class would grow and would earn its rightful spot as a/the top tier class. But right now it’s so fragmented from the death of Honda.
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Hondas are a minority (I can only think of 3 off the top of my head). It’s a good majority mix of Rok/KZ/175s
Rok gets 15 pounds advantage on the KZ/175, iirc.
We all know KZ/175 are equal on lap times, with KZ racing better.
I’ll get a good count on engine breakdown next week and try to sort results with them.
Good question. It seems that both clubs can’t have equal numbers, one has to dominate. Over the years, I’ve seen the large entries shift from Tri-C to LAKC and back in a 4 or 5 year cycle. I think it has to do with planetary alignment.
Here’s the best breakdown I can give for today. I’m missing a few:
7 TM
3 175
4 Rok
1 Maxter MXO
1 Modena
3 Moto
I think the rest were 175/KZ/Rok, too. Just not sure which.
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Sounds like Danny is proposing that it’s an issue of “comfort zone syndrome”. Maybe in the context of maintaining a record & a profile, it’s a smarter career oriented move for those with the means/potential of advancing in the racing world tin terms of maintaining their record & profile. Maybe going from single speed to gearbox means maybe starting back some in terms of ability & perhaps running farther back in the field, & any/all of the negatives that might follow from that. Everybody likes a winner, so why be otherwise?
But what do I know? I don’t run in those circles. I’m definitely a shifter fan, & I agree with him that the class deserves its due respect for what it is, does, & represents. It reallly is one of the pinnacle forms of driving & racing, & can hold its own against any other comparable forms just on the basis of the experience it provides. There really isn’t a whole lot like it out there.
He’s saying they have “no balls syndrome”… I agree.
I guess it’s two names for the same thing. 
Sorta joining the party late here… but, why aren’t 250cc 4T vs 125cc 2T shifters a thing? Or even going to fuel injection systems vs traditional carb setups…?
MX has been evolving with the engine developments for years, why isn’t karting as well?
I keep thinking who wouldn’t love to get more time out a motor than 5-10 hours between a rebuild (doubt even top level teams are even getting that).
Maybe I’m biased because I really want to stay racing and advancing in the sport; however, I find myself questioning if I will stay because of allergies I’ve developed. Basically, I can’t be around leaky/unrealiable/carburated 2 stroke motors anymore which is a shame, cause it sure is a lot of fun challenging myself.
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4-strokes haven’t worked in motocross though. The general feeling is they’ve added cost and complexity and don’t work for the privateer. They were only introduced because motocross is dominated by major manufacturers who didn’t want to invest in 2-stroke technology because they didn’t see a market for it outside of racing. Karting is dominated by smaller 2-stroke manufacturers however, and understand that the racing market has different needs than the road going market… and there is still a strong market for 2-strokes in motocross. EMX has a 125 class that is very much a ‘foundation’ class iirc
one of karting’s big successes of the last 20 years is staying away from 4-stroke technology in the high performance classes.
Also, it’s been highly controversial not having cc equivalency in motocross which is basically designed to hamstring the 2-strokes (I know some series let the 250s in with the 250F tho). Nothing to do with sporting fairness. Motocross hasn’t moved forward. It just put the interest of the major manufacturers first. Despite this Yamaha are back with a new 125, and TM & KTM still build 2-strokes.
Lower power 4-strokes work OK in karts, but the big real racing stuff… it’d get a bit out of hand… fast.
Karting is so much more equipment focused it would be disastrous once the big teams and manufacturers had to start tuning the things. The development cycle in 4-stroke motocross has been monumental and at least that’s masked by motocross/supercross being heavily rider dependent based racing. Plus they generally are much heavier which is something to avoid with karts. They really are ugly lumps.
and as we have seen with Stankdog and AJ Catanzaro… the 2-strokes are still fan favorites. A lot of people race 4-stroke because they have to, not because they want to.
Having said that there is a 450F class in Superkarts. I am not a big fan, but they do exist.
Do you have to rebuild 2 stroke motocross engines or is it just buy and drive
I drove my CR80 for a year without rebuilding it, which was good since it was my first 2-stroke, and kart. Totally buy and drive. It could use a new reed, but otherwise it is still good although it could use a good cleaning. I bought spare clutch parts, but never needed them. The CR125 guys said about the same thing. The most problems I had were with the coils, terrible push in design.
The IAME 125 guy though… always rebuilding or sending it back for a rebuild it seemed, when it didn’t blow up. But then he was serious and even changed jobs to move to the Indianapolis area to be closer to the other national guys
At the club level we just wanted something very reliable, even if it gives up a little performance. Take it out of the box and run it for several seasons without any maintenance, just cleaning it out and replacing the spark plug at years end. Most just moved to B&S for that, good enough I guess.
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I think we are expecting 0 shifter this year in our club, except @KartingIsLife gonna race his Lifan motor? Most of people raced shifter/outlaw last year switch to World Formula, and we now have a decent WF grid.
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I was actually out at SKC last weekend getting some sprockets etc for the kart. I’ll be bringing it out there soon to shake it down and see what folks thoughts are on it as it gets developed. No Lifan parts in it though…
I’m intentionally framing it as being more like an 80cc shifter vs 125. So that there’s no need for front brakes, which opens up the choice of chassis. Shifter integrated on the engine package for the same reason. I want it to be something that can grow the pie vs just move racers around classes.
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The CR80 and CR125 are road/bike derived engines so naturally are built to a different set of goals - reliability being one over absolute peak performance. They were never designed for karting. It’s why the MAX was such a big success as it’s a road/bike derived engine.
It’s one of gearbox karting’s biggest issues really (especially long circuit). I recall that Superkarts really started with road derived engines and the move to more bespoke racing motors started to become an issue in terms of cost. But the problem is, road derived engines generally don’t provide a stable platform long term unless a manufacturer continues to support them (as is the case with Rotax and the MAX FR125).
They provide lower costs when the market is there for road products, but once the manufacturer decides to move on (as with Honda and the CR product line), then what was once a reliable platform suddenly becomes more tricky. So shifter karting can sometimes be a house built on sand.
one could argue that shifters should use the 250F/450F series of dirtbike motors, and they may have a point, but that’s a step into the 4-stroke realm I don’t think really would be sustainable from a cost perspective either.
Having said that most KZ engines nowadays are pretty bullet proof, especially TM who make enough of them to provide a sustainable supply. It’s a massive learning curve to be competitive, but I kinda think that’s the point of racing.
it’s funny, even tho I am not a 4-stroke person, there’s something fun about pitbike derived engines I can’t deny 
look forward to seeing your kart when it gets out there
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I think Alan covered a lot of it really but I will add that EFI on a tuned pipe two stroke is incredibly hard to do well. It’s not at all like a four stroke. Most two stroke EFI systems are in steady state applications like boats and snowmobiles. The only group to pull it off have been KTM, although the concept is one guy’s design that they went and implemented. TPI or Transfer Port Injection.
EFI doesn’t really have a home on four strokes in karting, yet. Most four stroke offerings are lower cost, lower HP OHV engines so the ROI on a fuel injection system is not quite there.
That said, I’m developing a single cylinder fuel injection system that will be available with the horizontal four stroke shifter I’m working on.
Probably because they are not crazy bulky compared to the likes of say a vertical cylinder CRF250. The horizontal engines are neat little package in the scheme of things and for a gearbox engine not too heavy either.
You’re not wrong. Researching for a project of mine I reached the same conclusion. Up right four strokes are yucky.