(Weekly) KartPulse Racer Videos Thread

2417

That’s an interesting perspective. That’s what overtaking is; compromising his and your line to disrupt your momentum. He was just being extra friendly and giving you more space than he needed to. If he was compromising his line so much, he should’ve been rip to cross over on exit, but you weren’t able to. That’s the definition of a good pass. He didn’t make contact, he sent it with plenty of space to not risk a crash, and made it stick on the exit. Then you turn into him on the exit. I can see why he gave you the “wtf?” hand.

Seems like a wild reason to consider dumping someone. Maybe some rental kart red mist kicked in.

2418

Like I said it was legit. But it was contextually annoying. It’s a poorly designed corner imho, too much room for suboptimal line being manageable.

So I was just being a dick but just slightly. I did not intend or want to break his traction or end his race.

Also, it’s not fair to him for me to express my annoyance that way, but I’m human. I agree with both if you that the pass was legit and that I’m being unreasonable here.

I was more annoyed by this than getting punted in Final, strangely. That made sense to me. I was being raced, hard. Here someone scooted a shit line under.

To me racing properly involves passing without forcing the other guy to lift. That’s parking, not racing.

Semantics, I know, but like you said, “it’s only rentals”.

2419

This is a very interesting perspective. I could definitely see how that was the case many years ago. However, in today’s world of block lines and aggressive overtakes, I think you need to change your mentality. Any pass where you force the other guy to lift is ok by today’s standards.

2420

Every pass requires the other guy to lift.

In the video, it looks like you’re still on throttle before apex Dom, so it didn’t really look like you had to lift much.

I don’t know, I think it’s interesting that in your mind punting two guys in one corner when you were up to their rear tire is the correct course of action, but when someone passed you completely cleanly you felt immediate negative emotions about it and wanted to react by running into them.

I’m not trying to pile onto you either Dom! You just posted these and that’s my honest opinion on the incidents.

3 Likes
2421

Yup and that’s what I’m looking for, perspective. What’s too much what isn’t.

There’s all sorts of discussion about what’s kosher and what isn’t and it seems to me that I leave far too much on the table when I’m in “nice guy” mode.

Alan tells me I need to be a right bastard and I believe him. Tanguy tells me I need to race hard and not get bullied.

Outside of the one time I was a jerk, I can’t find a punt like you describe. I took the passes but I didn’t send anyone too deep, didn’t force them into unmanageable positions, and I think, drove fair. But, I don’t want to end up being considered super aggressive driver.

So in the end here I’m not sure what to take away from this. Yes the dick move in Pre was a dick move, red mist of sorts. I wasn’t angry, just annoyed, but that is in no way the other guys problem and it was uncool of me to act like I did there.

But I honestly don’t feel even slightly bad about any of my passes in final. This discussion will make me think about it more, in the moment. Can’t promise I’d make different choices though (in final).

2422

@speedcraft if you are game, give me your 2c on Doms “new” aggro commitment. Am I barking up the wrong tree?
I respect all your guys opinions except Elias because he’s out to get me.

I particularly respect TJ and Warren’s opinions and they carry a ton of weight with me.

If Warren also tells me I was being a plonker I’ll be seriously concerned because, in my experience, he’s more aggressive than me, so if he says I’m nuts then I’m nuts.

But man, that was a fun race. I’m not even mad about punt and not winning. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Me, for now:
IMG_0251

2423

Cup Karts Light Final at WRP from this weekend. Thoughts on the block line into turn 1 on lap 2,4,5 (of 16)? Am I old and grumpy or does that seem excessive?

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2424

Oh goody. Hopefully you misbehaved, badly and make me feel less immature. What’s your number or helmet look like?

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2425

If I was in the race, you can bet i misbehaved. But, sadly, its been a quite few years since I entered a “light” race :slight_smile:

2 Likes
2426

Blue round the outside was pretty. @ 3:37:55.

Can you give timestamp to illustrate block in question?

I guess timestamped don’t work on live replays (see above). Maybe just the actual time would help and we can scroll there.

Edit: I think I see: you have issue with the Liberante/wheeler bit? It’s subtle, but I don’t see anything exceptionally unusual. Maybe the very minor course corrections with dude on butt?

2427

My perspective: he turned in super early (like 10 feet early) and beelined it down to apex with a line that goes too far right. He had to take that cirner with lower speed because he had to turn it back down. It’s subtle but I had a “oh really?” moment and actually paused there (so damage done). It doesn’t look like much but that’s a problem with that turn. Nothing stops you from turning in way back and beelining the apex.

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In any case, I know you guys think I’m nuts for saying “bullshit pass”. I’m not saying he wasn’t within his rights or that it’s a “wrong” pass.

It’s fine. I just hate it. You’d have to race UK to see what I mean, maybe with more engine it’s more punitive of a block like that. I agree and assert that my reaction to driver was uncalled for and that he is not responsible for track design. I just personally choose to pass more sportily there.

Oh and by the way @tjkoyen thanks for the thotts. They are appreciated and being digested. I don’t like all of them but that’s probably because I have more to learn.

2428

I know you hate to hear it Derek, but defending is not illegal. You can run the low line all day if you want. It happens in every form of motorsports at every level. It’s an “old and grumpy” mindset to think otherwise (though I wouldn’t necessarily use those words to describe that mindset). I get where you’re coming from because I’ve seen the same thing in my time since I started. It used to be so tame and “follow the leader” and no one EVER used to defend. Part of the reason why Americans got their asses handed to them when Euros came over or we went over there.

The level of driver has gone up significantly here in the past 10 years. That’s why Kremers and Turney are coming here now. Part of that level up comes from more aggressive and advanced racecraft that doesn’t involve just pushing each other around for 15 laps.

2 Likes
2429

Disclaimer: I have openly admitted I am wrong and too “old school”.

These are not trick questions. I truly want to know:

@tjkoyen, would you teach a junior driver to do this at a club race?

If I drove like this in a club masters race, is that just “good race craft”?

Do I need to teach my son how to do this?

Harder question: how do I teach him to overtake this?

2430

Derek, please give me a timestamp so I can understand what you refer to. I watched the majority of this race and what I saw was some very minor kart moves on the straights. If that’s at issue, how would the leading driver narrow corner to defend, for example?

I won’t opine but I’m trying to see what you find problematic. Call it research.

2431

In certain scenarios, yes, I think it is appropriate to defend early in the race, though at a club race maybe I wouldn’t push a driver to do it as much because the goal at a club race is to learn and have fun, not play cutthroat. At the end of a club day, I want to drink beer and play cornhole with my competitors. But this isn’t a club race. This kind of aggressive racing and defending is more appropriate at regional or national races.

And like any technique in racing, sometimes drivers make a move or do something that isn’t necessary or is silly. In this specific clip you have Wheeler and Olds, two juniors who just moved to senior so don’t have the maturity or experience us grey hairs have, so they may make a move or defend at slightly the wrong time. Was it necessary to defend immediately? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not. Is it a sh*t move? Not in my eyes. Liberante races like that because he knows his competition and knows he must level with them on what kind of race it will be and get on the same page as them. You can’t be the one nice guy out there opening doors for people.

You have to go into every race and make a judgement on what kind of race it will be. If I go club racing, I certainly don’t drive everyone the same way I drive people at a national race. BUT if someone starts defending or giving me some bumper at a club race, they have automatically given me permission to do the same to them whether they like it or not.

If you want to educate your son on how to attack this problem, you teach him like you would teach him anything else; explain what the weaknesses are to this kind of defending. It ruins your exit speed, so you’ve got to find a place where you can roll more corner speed to cross over on the exit, or find a spot where you are strong under braking and go for an outside line to try and claim room before the apex. Running the bottom line isn’t an end-all-be-all foolproof strategy; there are ways around it. You can’t run the bottom in every straight so there will be a gap somewhere at some point.

1 Like
2432

Maybe I WAS more aggressive than you, but NOW? :joy:
I like to think I’m very aggressive, but fair; I drive by the golden rule.

In principle I agree with pretty much all of what @tjkoyen is saying. I say in principal, because I think that ‘proper’ racing etiquette only seems to vaguely fit a bumper-car environment. In ‘real’ racing there are potential consequences (financial and/or physical), so we have etiquette (Rules of Engagement) to keep racing fair and everyone as safe as possible.

With their wrap-around bumpers, and relatively slow speeds, rental racers exist on the consequences continuum just adjacent to online racing, and therefore people drive with little regard for etiquette and maximum focus on taking what they want, regardless of whether or not they have earned it with driving skill and racecraft. So, I don’t think you did anything really egregious, considering the environment, I might have @fatboy1dh ed the crap out of you if you kept shoving your kart into spaces you didn’t earn. Then again:

About the ‘bad’ pass; like the others, I see nothing wrong with this at all. The track is the canvas, and he painted a better line on that lap. Don’t limit yourself to preconceived ideas about what is a right line, or a good line, or a fair line, especially in the context of racing for position, and especially in the context of IRL virtual racing. :joy:

About the aggressive defensive lines, I’m old too, so not a fan. However, I do understand that racing is now 99.9% about winning (whatever position you’re fighting for… seemingly even if it’s last), and 0.01% about the craft and art of driving and racing for position.

I personally think karts are way over tired… you shouldn’t be able to enter a tight turn at the end of a long straight after running all the way down the inside of the track and not be vulnerable to an outside or crossover pass. But here we are, and maybe it’s a track dependent thing. That said the one kart stuck behind the defender was able to get by on the infield at one point (lap 2 or 3 maybe), but then he chose to drive the traditional line down the straight and got passed by two karts in T1, so what do I know.

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2433

Well explained as usual. Thank you!

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2434

And that’s where I got passed by Alex in pre. I really don’t contest that part at all. I took a frustration out a bit on the innocent driver, I understand that and fess up. So, I was just showing that example of me being an asshole to show that I differentiate between that and how I drove the final.

It’s the final, however, where I felt I was going for the openings for the first 3/4 of the race. In doing so I had a number of passes that involved me going under and generally being a pressure machine. I deliberately was trying to not get stuck behind their pace.

Personally, I thought it was a good drive and the passes good ones. Can you ignore the prefinal sillyness that ended up being the focus and tell me if the finals (main) was too far off the spectrum of aggression?

Like, for example, t1 first lap, TJ says I lost that corner and should have lifted. I don’t see that at all, that’s not my experience with piling everyone into the first turn with wraparounds. That will guarantee that I get sent all the way back. It’s a reverse grid and I’m already starting in back. Again, tho, his perspective is open wheel racing, not rentals with bumpers, so, for a bunch of rental karts, I wonder if that’s too conservative a perspective. Maybe I should ask Tanguy who probably has more rental racing dna.

The process of going aggressive for me seemed to yield dividends and I’m having trouble seeing where I was unfair in final. AFAIK no one got dark-sided (other than me).

It’s a big ask, and if you are willing take a look from my eyes. Im not asking you to tell me I was fine, but I am asking you to consider the final only and leave the Dom shouting at course designer turn out of your perspective (it prejudices the context).

And, yes, I agree. That’s kind of my frustration with the turn. It’s just too much acreage with not enough hp. I may have to play this approach in a final lap myself! But that’s another story entirely, damn me for being full disclosure!

You and TJ are very kind and I appreciate it. I also appreciate that you guys are in the clock IRL and would like to compensate both of you for the effort, if interested and time allows.

Not being difficult, but when, exactly, is an example of shoving a kart into a space it didn’t belong here? I’d like to see what you mean and that would help me understand visually.

2435

Firstly these are just opinions from an old fart. Also in the context of the slam bang, live of the razors edge, laugh in the face of death world of rental kart racing, perhaps what I’m going to point out will seam very minor (or just plain wrong) to you. Certainly, the whole race was pretty tame compared to Tanguy’s rental races.

In general I thought you drove very well, and setup/made a bunch of good clean passes from the beginning of the race to the 5:00 mark. I also thought you drove well after some excitement in minute 5:

At the 5:05 mark you made a very late dive at a hole that was not there and lightly bumped ‘yellow shirt’ in the LR, forcing him wide. Ultimately it didn’t impact his race/pace, but this is an example of wanting what you want (inside position) without earning it… your front bumper didn’t even get to his rear bumper until he had completed his turn in, and was on target to the apex.

At the 5:17 mark, basically the same thing again. You forced the front end of you kart into a disappearing space even though you had not earned the right to that space (through sufficient overlap at a reasonable place in the corner). Again, you ended up ‘demanding’ the space and as a result ended up bumping the guy in the LR as he unintentionally ran you out of room because he had no reasonable expectation you would be there.

At the 5:36 mark, this time you had a little more overlap, but only because you ‘cut’ the racing line short, and arrived at the apex when the other kart did. However, even so, you still didn’t get sufficient overlap at a reasonable time (place in the corner) to call this a clean pass. Actually, it’s not entirely different than the pass that annoyed you in the prefinal, except in that case when he dove to the apex he didn’t bang into you and knock you out of the way to complete the pass.

On the bright side, it was a good aggressive run, and dialing the aggression regulator back a click from maybe too much to just right is much easier than the other way around. :+1:

2436

OK thank ypu. Im gonna go look at your timestamps and see. However, as you were typing this I ran the race by Nick and that was basically his feedback. What he said I did that he saw as questionable was the taps to the back of the karts that weren’t on a straight and off center (not in the rear/middle of the bumper). The rest he was good with.

His perspective: “Im OK when you do that because I know you arent gonna break my grip. However, when I get tapped like that, I assume that things are going to get spicy and have to change up my driving to defend against an aggressive driver. I worry that a less experienced driver might panic or otherwise feel threatened and I try to avoid any contact mid corner with folks I dont know.”

Also. I countered with the whole, “yeah but Im basically at that point just nudging to say hello and controlling my speed such that I wont break grip.”

To which he responded, “you are fooling yourself, if theres any countersteer, they were affected. Go look again and tell me if any of your taps caused a steering reaction.”

1 Like